Revisiting brickwalls and "backburners".

[coombs]

Hi mark, thanks for the new info I shall look into it. If it is any help here is the signature of my James Smith who wed Sarah Inkpen in 1819 in Oxford. This also has Andrew Carney's signature.

[BushInn1746]

Not the same James Smith signature.

But your James Smith family may have had same named individuals in parallel lines, or even a father perhaps?

Or a coincidence, the harder one looks, the more alternative connections, sometimes can be made.

James and Barbara Box, had a Son John baptised and James Box, Occupation was given.
 ----------
There is another James Box, who left a Will, Proved 1780 PCC, who was a Smith and a Brazier of Brook Street, in the Parish of St George, Hanover Square, Middlesex.

Requesting to buried in the Burial Ground at Paddington.
My Sister Jane Box now residing in Brook Street.
Reference to property in George Street, Grosvenor Square.
My Daughters Jane Box and Margaret Richards.
My Grand Daughter Jane Richards an Infant Daughter of Margaret Richards ...

(See also Voters Poll 1770s on Anc).

Will
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D383880

Added
[  ]th March 1776
Joseph Richard, Bachelor, married Margaret Box, Spinster.
[All signed & he signed Joseph Richards ]
Present (wits) Thos Trimlet ; Sarah Trimlet.

Marriage Indexed as 11 Mar 1776
Saint Dunstan And All Saints, Stepney: Rectory Square, Tower Hamlets, England

1770
Thomas Trimlet married Sarah Richards

[coombs]

Yes, the more you look, the more possible connections you will find. It is possible James Smith came from London originally but cannot be sure. Shame he died just 2 years before the 1851 census, as if I even just had a county of birth that would help.

Signature comparison is good as it can help prove or disprove the same signature. Deffo not the same signatures with the 2 James Smith's though.

The Carney/Corney links are something to go on though.

I did find an Ann Carney baptised 26 September 1819 in Oxford St Clement, her father Andrew was a turner. Mother was Sarah. This was just a month after he witnessed the wedding of James Smith.

[BushInn1746]

This other James Box, a Smith & Brazier with a Will Proved 1780, I can't see any Smith links there, after a very brief quick search.
 ----------
But if this were me I'd be looking at James Corney - Box - Smith, surnames link.

Hopefully, the 1819 James Corney & Jane Box, marriage mentioned and all their Baptisms (2 listed found easily, but could be more) might show up in the Census and who knows a Smith surname might show up again in the Census and/or present at their child marriages of any children, or not.

It is a shot to nothing, but the only Carney / Corney & Smith surname family relationship link so far and is worth a deeper look?

Those present at marriages are often related, but a few can be church officials, neighbours, work colleagues or friends from their religious meeting or chapel.

[coombs]

Andrew Carney was either a colleague, friend, neighbour or relative it seems. If they were friends, they may have moved up from London together, same as if relatives. Likely not a neighbour as he lived in one of the most easterly areas of Oxford in 1819 and James Smith in the centre of Oxford.

I did just find a James Box listed as an apprentice to John Carter a citizen and blacksmith in 1741, and he was the son of James Box of Hanover Square, also a blacksmith. Possibly the same James Box who was a citizen and smith and brazier who died in 1780.

Also just found a James Corney made freeman in City of London in 1822 as a gold and silver wire drawer.

[BushInn1746]

Also just found a James Corney made freeman in City of London in 1822 as a gold and silver wire drawer.

Are James Corney and James Carney, the same?

Thought a Goldsmith link was mentioned somewhere before?

[coombs]

Also just found a James Corney made freeman in City of London in 1822 as a gold and silver wire drawer.

Are James Corney and James Carney, the same?

Thought a Goldsmith link was mentioned somewhere before?

I think the Andrew Carney (c1788-1845) I have my eye on was a gold plate setter, and at other times a turner. I estimate that James Carney/Corney was about 21 in 1822 when he was made a freeman.

[BushInn1746]

Hi, all I know about Andrew Carney's background is he was born c1788 and died in 1845 and his father was James Carney according to his 1842 marriage.

He lived in Oxford in 1819 when he was a turner, when he witnessed James Smith's marriage.

On the 1842 Marriage you will find one of those present (witness) signed as Mary Ann Carney.

1832
One possible suggestion for witness Mary Ann Carney (at 1842 Marriage) is Mary Ann Arle marrying James Carney 9th January 1832.

Present as witnesses at the 1832 Marriage by Banns (Banns Dec 1831 - Jan 1832) at St Anne Westminster, Middlesex, were:- John Horsey ; Jane "Corn*y" [ Jane Carney ]
* not an 'e' but probably meant to be.

Are you able to get the 1832 couple in the Census?

Looks like surname Horsey and the other Jane Corney [ Jane Carney ]

Mark

Suggested the above Jane Corney / Jane Carney might be Jane Box and a possible Smith surname link.
 -----------
I believe the following 1853 marriage links to the above 1832 marriage.

25th September 1853, Parish of St Andrew, Holborn, London.
Henry Partridge, full, Bachelor, Jeweller, Par. of St Pancras, Thomas Partridge Jeweller.
To
Mary Ann Carney, Minor, Spinster, James Carney, Picture Frame Maker.

In the Presence of James Carney, Elizabeth Arle

2nd letter in Carney signature definitely an 'a'

A less established Mary Ann Carney signature, so not the one present at the 1842 marriage.

Henry Partridge was a Jeweller, so likely a Gold link too.

So the Smith surname link at Reply #53 still on as a possible?

St Brides, Fleet Street, London, England, 1st August 1819
James Corney married Jane Box, Spinster
In the Presence of:-
Daniel OKeefe
JAMES SMITH

[coombs]

Hi, all I know about Andrew Carney's background is he was born c1788 and died in 1845 and his father was James Carney according to his 1842 marriage.

He lived in Oxford in 1819 when he was a turner, when he witnessed James Smith's marriage.

On the 1842 Marriage you will find one of those present (witness) signed as Mary Ann Carney.

1832
One possible suggestion for witness Mary Ann Carney (at 1842 Marriage) is Mary Ann Arle marrying James Carney 9th January 1832.

Present as witnesses at the 1832 Marriage by Banns (Banns Dec 1831 - Jan 1832) at St Anne Westminster, Middlesex, were:- John Horsey ; Jane "Corn*y" [ Jane Carney ]
* not an 'e' but probably meant to be.

Are you able to get the 1832 couple in the Census?

Looks like surname Horsey and the other Jane Corney [ Jane Carney ]

Mark

Suggested the above Jane Corney / Jane Carney might be Jane Box and a possible Smith surname link.
 -----------
I believe the following 1853 marriage links to the above 1832 marriage.

25th September 1853, Parish of St Andrew, Holborn, London.
Henry Partridge, full, Bachelor, Jeweller, Par. of St Pancras, Thomas Partridge Jeweller.
To
Mary Ann Carney, Minor, Spinster, James Carney, Picture Frame Maker.

In the Presence of James Carney, Elizabeth Arle

2nd letter in Carney signature definitely an 'a'

A less established Mary Ann Carney signature, so not the one present at the 1842 marriage.

Henry Partridge was a Jeweller, so likely a Gold link too.

So the Smith surname link at Reply #53 still on as a possible?

St Brides, Fleet Street, London, England, 1st August 1819
James Corney married Jane Box, Spinster
In the Presence of:-
Daniel OKeefe
JAMES SMITH

Thanks very much, this is looking promising.