Revisiting brickwalls and "backburners".

[coombs]

1851 St Peter Le Bailey, Queen Street, Oxford, England.
Sarah Smith, Head, W, 54, Laundress, Oxon, Oxford.
Elizabeth Smith, Daur, U, 19, Oxford.
Ann Smith, Daur, U, 18, Oxford.
George Smith, Son, U, 15, Tinman & Braziers App, born Oxford.
Charles Smith, Son, - , 13 Labourer in Cocoa Manufac'y, born Oxford.

1836, Baptism St Peter Le Bailey, Oxford.
25 June, George Son of James & Sarah Smith,
Abode: Broadwater's Yard, Arnold's Passage,
Trade: Tin Plate Worker & glazier,
By whom, [initial?] Reay, Curate.
 ----------

I have changed the above Baptism year, it reads 1836 top of the page.

This looks to be his Marriage ...

1856 Long Wittenham, Berkshire, 20 October, Marriage.

George Smith, 24, Tinman & Brazier, Residence Oxford S Peter le Bailey, Father James Smith, Tin Man & Brazier.
 &
Eliza Champ, 23, Spinster, Long Wittenham, Thomas Champ.

Present: Ann Pool ; James Pool

Berks Archive D/p153/1/8
NOT SEEN marriage image, info from transcription.

1861 Basingstoke, Hampshire
George Smith, 27, Tinman & Brazier, born Oxfordshire, Oxford.
Eliza Smith, 26, born Berks, Long Whittenham.

1871 & 1891 at Winchester Road, Basingstoke.
Eliza's Birthplaces given as Long Whittenham / Long Whitham.

A Tree on Ancestry has George Smith above, marrying someone else (but no Registrar or GRO, B, M, D, Certificates).

George Smith, Tin Smith below in 1901, looks to be the earlier Tin Plate Worker, but remarried by 1901?

1901 London St Paul, Deptford, Greenwich, Eccl Dist Christchurch
25 Giffin Street
George Smith, Head, M, 64, Tin Smith, Own Account, born Oxford.
Jane Smith, Wife, M, 30, Machinist nk, born London Borough.
 
George Smith, Tin Plate Worker / Tin Smith, born Oxford, looks to have remarried?
 ----------
1881 Basingstoke
7 Winchester Road
Census Schedule No 29
George Smith  Head, Mar, 44, Tin Plate Worker, born Oxford.
Eliza Smith, Wife, Mar, 47, born Berks Whitenham

 -------------------------------------------------------
There was another George Smith, baptised in October 1835 at St Peter Le Bailey Oxford, with different parents, different abode and Father's occupation.

Small update on James Smith. I did find in November 1811, a James Smith, was made a freeman of the company of tin plate workers. City of London Freedom Admission Papers have some updated records.

Not sure if it is my James Smith, tin plate worker later of Oxford but worth a shot. The 1811 document said James Smith was of Newgate Street, a mans mercer made a freeman of the company f tin plate workers. Sworn by W Mitton, clerk to the company. Paid to Mr Chamberlain.

[BushInn1746]

There is a website of the current Company, it seems they are classed as a Livery

I am not sure if a Guild is separate, or whether they are a Guild too.

The Worshipful Company of Tin Plate Workers Alias Wire Workers of The City of London

https://tinplateworkers.co.uk/

Added
Might be worth reading up about the Oxford Guilds and Companies and if any records survive?

Craft Guilds
A History of the County of Oxford: Volume 4, the City of Oxford. Originally published by Victoria County History, London, 1979.

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/oxon/vol4
 -------------
As well as the County Archives you should also enquire here ...

Bodleian Library, Oxford

https://www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/home

This Archive is no ordinary Library and they hold many historic manuscript records for other places too.

[coombs]

Thanks that is worth a shot. He could have been apprenticed in London then moved to Oxford, or may have been apprenticed in Oxford. Bat as he put "not born in county of residence" in 1841 census in Oxford, county of Oxfordshire, it is proving tough trying to find his origins, as he died in 1849, 2 years prior to the 1851 census which gave more accurate birthplaces.

As said, one of the witnesses to his marriage in 1819 in Oxford was Andrew Carney. I traced him later on and he was from London originally born c1788. He was a turner and gold plate setter. Andrew died in 1845 in Clerkenwell.

Due to the common name of Smith, there may have been 2 James Smith's who were tin plate workers, or more, circa 1812 in the UK.

[BushInn1746]

Numerous additions / changes to this post

Found sited in Gunmakers of Oxford, the names of various Directories & Poll Books

Universal British Directory 1791 (Countywide), 5 Volumes, (Main Traders in the Main Towns listed in the Index)
Two Volumes are online for free (one online is V. 2)

1802 Freemans Poll

Pigot's 1823

Pigot’s 1829 / 1830 Directory

Vincent’s Oxford Directory 1835

Vincent's Oxford, University, City and County Directory 1835 (Bodleian Library).

Robson’s Commercial Directory 1839

Hunt & Co’s Oxford Directory 1846

Hunt's City of Oxford Directory 1846 (Bodleian)
 ----------
I got one set of 1823 Directory scans on CD for another county from S&N Genealogical Supplies, which mentioned one of three of my ancestors in business in Northampton.

S & N Gen. Supplies.
This CD resource contains the 1823 and 1844 Pigot's directories for Oxfordshire. It carries local listings of major professions, of nobility, gentry, ...
 ----------
The Oxfordshire Archives produce a Pdf List of Directories they hold called (found on google) 
Oxfordshire Directories at Oxfordshire History Centre

https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/residents/museums-and-history/oxfordshire-history-centre/collections-archives-and-records/newspapers-and-periodicals
 ---------------
Some Digital resources for Oxfordshire history, apparently on Google Books

https://www.oxfordshirehistory.org.uk/public/directories_google.htm

Vincent 1835 Directory does not even seem to list a Blacksmith?

James Smith search
https://heritagesearch.oxfordshire.gov.uk/search/all:combined/0_50/all/score_desc/%22James%20Smith%22

[BushInn1746]

Thanks that is worth a shot. He could have been apprenticed in London then moved to Oxford, or may have been apprenticed in Oxford. Bat as he put "not born in county of residence" in 1841 census in Oxford, county of Oxfordshire, it is proving tough trying to find his origins, as he died in 1849, 2 years prior to the 1851 census which gave more accurate birthplaces.

As said, one of the witnesses to his marriage in 1819 in Oxford was Andrew Carney. I traced him later on and he was from London originally born c1788. He was a turner and gold plate setter. Andrew died in 1845 in Clerkenwell.

Due to the common name of Smith, there may have been 2 James Smith's who were tin plate workers, or more, circa 1812 in the UK.

PROB 11/1730/487
28 September 1827
PCC Will (Copy) for a James Carney of Eaton Court, Pimlico, Middlesex.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D166188

I've not downloaded but this James Carney, Will, (not easy to read in preview mode with angled wording across) seemed to say:-

Wife was Ann Carney.
Daughter was Margaret Slater.
Daughter was Bridget Stone (or Hone).
Executors: William Slater and Henry Stone.

I have my doubts re Hone alternative and not checked the marriage on Anc.

Seems no Andrew Carney, but have these surnames cropped up in your past Carney searches.

There may be other Carney Wills (non PCC) registered at other archives.

Duty Indexes (IR 27)
Death Duty Index (listed by f m p under 1827) appears to name one Executor as Wm Slater, 8 Eaton Court Pimlico and refers to Volume 3 at Folio 911.

Duty Registers
The Duty Registers are in IR 26 by Surname Letter, Probate Year and Folio ranges.

Just ordered a TNA page check and another Duty Register Wills entry for one of my family (despite having printed images of the 1861 Will Copy recorded in the Book at Wakefield).

Bear in mind there are sometimes several types of Duty Registers in IR 26, I usually go for a Duty Wills Register page check first, of the relevant full TNA Cat Ref., supplying the Testator's name, place and the Inland Revenue Fol. Number.

[coombs]

Thanks that is worth a shot. He could have been apprenticed in London then moved to Oxford, or may have been apprenticed in Oxford. Bat as he put "not born in county of residence" in 1841 census in Oxford, county of Oxfordshire, it is proving tough trying to find his origins, as he died in 1849, 2 years prior to the 1851 census which gave more accurate birthplaces.

As said, one of the witnesses to his marriage in 1819 in Oxford was Andrew Carney. I traced him later on and he was from London originally born c1788. He was a turner and gold plate setter. Andrew died in 1845 in Clerkenwell.

Due to the common name of Smith, there may have been 2 James Smith's who were tin plate workers, or more, circa 1812 in the UK.

PROB 11/1730/487
28 September 1827
PCC Will (Copy) for a James Carney of Eaton Court, Pimlico, Middlesex.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D166188

I've not downloaded but this James Carney, Will, (not easy to read in preview mode with angled wording across) seemed to say:-

Wife was Ann Carney.
Daughter was Margaret Slater.
Daughter was Bridget Stone (or Hone).
Executors: William Slater and Henry Stone.

I have my doubts re Hone alternative and not checked the marriage on Anc.

Seems no Andrew Carney, but have these surnames cropped up in your past Carney searches.

There may be other Carney Wills (non PCC) registered at other archives.

Duty Indexes (IR 27)
Death Duty Index (listed by f m p under 1827) appears to name one Executor as Wm Slater, 8 Eaton Court Pimlico and refers to Volume 3 at Folio 911.

Duty Registers
The Duty Registers are in IR 26 by Surname Letter, Probate Year and Folio ranges.

Just ordered a TNA page check and another Duty Register Wills entry for one of my family (despite having printed images of the 1861 Will Copy recorded in the Book at Wakefield).

Bear in mind there are sometimes several types of Duty Registers in IR 26, I usually go for a Duty Wills Register page check first, of the relevant full TNA Cat Ref., supplying the Testator's name, place and the Inland Revenue Fol. Number.

Hi, all I know about Andrew Carney's background is he was born c1788 and died in 1845 and his father was James Carney according to his 1842 marriage.

He lived in Oxford in 1819 when he was a turner, when he witnessed James Smith's marriage.

[ThrelfallYorky]

Keep trying to "un notify" on this - can't even find the bit to click, now.
TY

[BushInn1746]

TY the Unnotify button is next to the "Reply" button.

Hi, all I know about Andrew Carney's background is he was born c1788 and died in 1845 and his father was James Carney according to his 1842 marriage.

He lived in Oxford in 1819 when he was a turner, when he witnessed James Smith's marriage.

On the 1842 Marriage you will find one of those present (witness) signed as Mary Ann Carney.

1832
One possible suggestion for witness Mary Ann Carney (at 1842 Marriage) is Mary Ann Arle marrying James Carney 9th January 1832.

Present as witnesses at the 1832 Marriage by Banns (Banns Dec 1831 - Jan 1832) at St Anne Westminster, Middlesex, were:- John Horsey ; Jane "Corn*y" [ Jane Carney ]
* not an 'e' but probably meant to be.

Are you able to get the 1832 couple in the Census?

Looks like surname Horsey and the other Jane Corney [ Jane Carney ]

Mark

[BushInn1746]

Added: One possible for Jane Corney, present as a witness at the 1832 Marriage, above ...

1764 - 1819 London, England: Corney to Box to Smith link?

St Brides, Fleet Street, London, England, 1st August 1819
James Corney married Jane Box, Spinster
In the Presence of:-
Daniel OKeefe
JAMES SMITH

Added:
But his in 1819 signature looks like James Ca*ney? [ James Carney ]
* joined on to the 'a' possibly meant to be an r?

James Smith, could sign his own name quite nicely.
 -------------
Further Additions

1819, 27th Oct 
Baptisms in the City of London Lying in Hospital, Middlesex
Child - James Corney
Parents - James and Jane Corney,
Abode - Queens Arms Cot, Blackfriars Road,
Quality, Trade, or Profession - Porter,
 ----------
Baptisms 1822
St John the Evangelist, Westminster, Middlesex.
Oct 13
Born May 25 1821

Child - William Son of
Parents - James and Jane Corney,
Abode - Rochester Row,
Quality, Trade, or Profession - Coachman

I'll leave it up to you, if you want to check this family out for more children and find them in later Census?
 ----------
Incidentally, there is an Andrew Carney, Abode Bishopsgate, aged 31 yrs, buried City of London and Tower Hamlets Cemetery, Sunday June 5th 1859.

Certificate Received Yes, so it looks like his Death was Registered with the Registrar, in accord with the Registration Act.

Andrew Carney was one of results when searching for a baptism.
 ----------
Thinking out of the Box (as the day goes on the puns might get worse)

27th May 1764 (Banns also online too)
St Bride, Fleet Street, City of London
"Box & Smith" [margin]
James Box Batch'r and Barbara Smith, Spins'r both of this Parish were Married in this church by Banns
In the Presence of Jane Davis ; Edward James

Regards Mark