so why wouldn't he acknowledge her?

[Milliepede]

Personally, I'm not convinced that Samuel was the father of Sarah and twin Alice.

Me neither.  He would either have married her sooner not 4 years later or disappeared soon after she got pregnant if he didn't want to be a willing father. 

Couldn't there be links to other possible fathers out there somewhere 

[chris_49]

Personally, I'm not convinced that Samuel was the father of Sarah and twin Alice.

Me neither.  He would either have married her sooner not 4 years later or disappeared soon after she got pregnant if he didn't want to be a willing father. 

Couldn't there be links to other possible fathers out there somewhere 

I don't think so either, but perhaps he was more mature and willing to take responsibility at 25 than he was at 20. Against that, he didn't acknowledge her.

There could be some other father out there but 3 years of chasing DNA matches on Ancestry hasn't uncovered him - most matches turn to be from other branches on my mother's side, like Hancox. There then remains the problem of how I am descended from those Manton and Gaydon matches.

[Ashtone]

Think about getting Alice's 1882 death cert. It might provide a clue as to where Harriett was at the time.
Who knows...maybe she was residing very near to the biological father.

As for presuming that Samuel could be the real father I think that will lead you down a rabbit hole. It just doesn't make any sense (e.g. listing his biological daughter as 'step-daughter' in 1891).

If one of Samuel's brothers is the real father of Sarah and Alice you might go round in (DNA) circles trying to ascertain who the culprit was.

ADDED -

Interesting that Elizabeth Aitken (nee Tidmarsh?) is a marriage witness for Harriett and Samuel in 1885.
We know that Harriett was visiting the Aitken family in 1881. Perhaps they were good friends.

I do wonder who Harriett was in service to prior to the 1881 census event. The term "out of place" usually refers to domestics who aren't in current employment.

[DianaCanada]

Perhaps Samuel wasn’t entirely convinced that Sarah was his, but for the second pregnancy he knew that he was responsible, so married Harriet.  A lot of maturing can happen between 20 and 25!  If he thought Harriet had been seeing someone else during their earlier relationship, he might never have admitted he was the father, even if it was entirely possible (the twins were likely born a bit early, which might have skewed his thinking re when he and Harriet “got together”.
Is the amount of DNA that your matches share of any help in determining if a brother might be the bio dad?  I know they can vary widely, but it might help (and if you have a sibling who could test…).

[coombs]

I would also agree that I do not think Samuel was the father, or was not totally sure he was the father, and always had those doubts so just referred to her as "stepdaughter". But it is looking likely he was her uncle instead. Much of what is said about DNA testing goes over my head as I have little to no experience with genetic genealogy, just paper trails.

[lisalisa]

My mother married her Manton first cousin perhaps thinking it was safe since he was only a half-cousin - was she wrong? (He was killed at El Alamein shortly after the wedding).

So is the Manton man your mother marries a descendant of Samuel and Harriet or a different branch of the Manton family?


The dna 'matching' to Hannah Gaydon might be from further back, eg if one of her ancestors has a sibling who marries into one of your other lines.
It's had to explain, but I've noticed my mom having shared matches where it looks like the paternal side match/share with the maternal side, I finally found the link when finding a female from the paternal side marrying into the other line, but quite a bit earlier than I might have expected.

Lisa

[chris_49]

Sorry if that's not clear. My mother's first husband was John Edward Weyman, son of Margaret Manton who was the half-sister of my grandmother Sarah Hancox. So yes descended from Henry Manton and Hannah Gaydon. I only wish that I was still in touch with my Manton relatives but sadly not, and none of them has taken an Ancestry DNA test (there aren't many of them).

I realise that this is all surmising but I have little else to go on. My Manton match has only Northants forebears apart from this line.

[chris_49]

Harriet was "domestic servant out of place" in 1881 because - I suspect - she was sacked for getting pregnant. She was staying - hiding? - with next-door neighbours. I've often wished that those employers had sacked her just a little later!

[lisalisa]

Sorry if that's not clear. My mother's first husband was John Edward Weyman, son of Margaret Manton who was the half-sister of my grandmother Sarah Hancox. So yes descended from Henry Manton and Hannah Gaydon. I only wish that I was still in touch with my Manton relatives but sadly not, and none of them has taken an Ancestry DNA test (there aren't many of them).

I realise that this is all surmising but I have little else to go on. My Manton match has only Northants forebears apart from this line.

So is it correct that John Edward Weyman is not your father?
Sorry I just needed to be clear, because if he were (as a Manton/Hancox direct line descendant), I think it would be impossible to unravel via dna, as you wouldn't know if any Manton dna were from your mother (if Samuel were her father) or from John E Weyman.

A suggestion I had in mind, and which you answer, is to test other descendants of Samuel and Harriet, to see if it is clear from the cMs shared, if they are full or half 'cousins' to your line of Sarah, your mother, you.
It would still be difficult.

Is the Manton match you mention high in cMs?