Tracing an illusive Railway employee, London, 1930s

[MollyC]

Good to see you are pressing on, Bob.  It occurs to me there is a slight discrepancy in some dates here.

The newspaper report (#77, page 9) may be a different person.  It says a wife and three children had been chargable to the Guardians since August 1926.  However, the third child (Joan Margaret) was not born until October 1926.  It may just be the reporter generalising.

Albert's address is given on the birth cert. as being the same as his wife.  If true, he had not left her by then.  However, she notified the birth, she may have been covering up the truth.

It may be possible to check Guardians' records at Birmingham Archives.

[BobB1]

I agree MollyC, it doesn't add up.

The Alfred Spiers formally a waiter at Queens hotel who did 6 months for theft and desertion doesn't seem fit with the other 2 Spiers. BUT, I can't rule him out as it's possible after his jail term he meets/or already knew Madge and they run away to London and he changes his ID to Wilson.

Albert Sydney Spiers and the Navy Albert Spiers seems more likely they are both the same man - born the same time and the same name.

I attach the recently arrived 1922 marriage certificate of Albert Sydney and Amy Ellson which throws up some curiosities. Both give addresses as No 5 and No 7 Woodbine Grove - so were neighbours?

Note. Alberts Father is now a 'Licensed Victualler'. Perhaps the 1912 murder charge led him to lose his job?

1st illegitimate child, Edward, was born in 1921 and born/living at No 7 Woodbine Grove with Amy.

When child 2 was born, Amy, in 1923, they had married and living at 66 Carver Street.

When child 3 was born, Joan, in 1926 they were living at 12 Kensington Gardens

Albert Sydney has alternated between waiter and now barman.

1927 ish Albert Sydney and Jailbird Albert both seem to disappear! Both have a reason to hide their past  - both deserted family and both couldn't marry Madge as no divorce took place.

In 1929 Amy is found back at No 7 Woodbine Grove with her parents and the kids.

I now have three problems:

1. How to follow up either of these chaps to rule them in or out as Madge's 'Wilson'?

2. Where does the connection with Dining Car Attendant come in?

3. How to trace Madge's whereabouts between 1925 and 1930 to see if there is a link to the above Alberts?

I'd be grateful if anyone could offer advice of how to go about that.
 
Bob

[Cas (stallc)]

Bob,
Have you considered doing a DNA test? It may be the way to confirm that Albert Spiers really is the same man as Albert/Alf Wilson.

Yes, I've considered it, but surely the gamble is that there is a DNA sample, somehow given/taken by the man or family in question? I don't know how likely that would be.

My task for now is trying to follow the 3 Alberts who have been discussed so far as they seem possible candidates for Alf. Trying hard to find a connection or rule one or all out.

Big shout out to the rootschat team effort and all the info acquired here, amazing research!


BobB1 - I would not rule DNA testing out. It can be incredibly useful, to establish connection to people or families. I would suggest for your mother to test, as one generation away from your grandfather. You could manage her test, and matches, if she is unable.

You may not get your grandfathers individual DNA. BUT you will get links to generations of ancestors that can be traced forward or back from family DNA who have tested. This can help rule in or out if this man is connected to your mother.

A bonus if your mother tests, it will also link directly to Madge and her ancestors for FH research.

I have found it incredibly useful, if a DNA link is found it leads back to a common shared set of grandparents. The sometimes puzzle part is fitting them all into a tree with rightful family link.

Possibly Eastertime there maybe a 'sale' at ancestry, most use this as it has the biggest database. Although there are other companies.

It has proved invaluable in my research and most times can take out the guesswork if they are linked, or not.

Just my thoughts

Cas

[BobB1]

BobB1 - I would not rule DNA testing out. It can be incredibly useful, to establish connection to people or families. I would suggest for your mother to test, as one generation away from your grandfather. You could manage her test, and matches, if she is unable.

Thank you Cas.

I agree; the contributors on this thread have been fantastically helpful in assisting with my request and even though I haven't yet found concrete leads to identify Alf, some very useful information has been dug up that has filled in a lot of gaps; for which I'm grateful.

I had zero experience and knowledge in family history research and its complications and the process has been extremely educating - without the help of RC I'd be floundering.

I'll look further into the DNA option, although I still have questions from what I know already to work through.

I'm not one to give up, even though surviving records are scant, I'm certain a lead is waiting to be found.

Bob

[BobB1]

Good Morning.

FYI. I'm plodding on and in the interim I have been reconsidering Madge's 2 moments of lucidity:

1. Alf came from ''a well do to do family''
2. Alf had 2 sisters who where on the stage  - an act something like ''the Dolly Sisters''

So I back tracked:

My main possibility is Albert Sydney Spiers, born 24 May 1900.

His Father, Edward Spiers born 1881 had 8 siblings:

William H  boy
Albert  boy
Sydney  boy
Etty girl
James boy
Flora  girl
Ernest  boy
Berty  boy

Edward (Albert Sydney's Father) was a Jewellery Ring Maker, by all accounts a significant position and post a long apprenticeship. In 1912 he stands accused of Murder and appears to separate from wife, Agnes around 1911/12. By the 1922 marriage of his son, Albert Sydney, although deceased, he is now a 'Licensed Victualler '

Edward's older Brother, Albert, born 1870 is a Watch case maker, then an Innkeeper, then by the 1911 census is a Goldsmith. They live in Lozells Birmingham, an upper middle class area.

Brother, Albert has a wife and 2 daughters, all 3 are actresses - the 2 daughters, Ida and Grace are in Variety Theatre  -  I can't find any trace of them other than the 1939 register when they are at Radnor Road, another prestigious area - but probably lodgings.

So, assuming Madge's memories were a little confused, then this is to me is a tentative link. Albert would certainly be considered 'well off' and perhaps, Alf, didn't have sisters, but 2 cousins 'on the stage'?

I also recall the claim that Alf was 'pally' with Flanagan & Allan. Could the cousins be the connection?

N.B. another recent update; Madge told my Mother that ''his family (Alf's) didn't want them to be together''. If this is Alf's wife and kids, or his siblings etc, I have no idea, but it does it suggest they probably met in the Birmingham area?

[MollyC]

A good discovery that there were cousins "on the stage" which connects back to page 5 of this thread, your post #39, para. 4.

They are probably out there in press advertisments for Variety, but using a stage name which we need to find.  Does anyone know of an index to stage names/real names?  There will be one somewhere.

If Alf/Albert was in contact with his cousins when he was living in London, then at least some of his family knew where he was.  I think these must be them:

Marriage:
Spiers, Albert/Tonks, Ellen Amelia     W. Bromwich    6b   863  MarQ 1892
Births:
Spiers, Ida  Nellie     mmn Tonks          Aston         6d   436  MarQ 1892
Spiers, Grace  Mabel    mmn Tonks     Aston         6d   408  JunQ 1895

In the 1881 census Ellen is aged 9, with 3 members of the household in jewellery trades.
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC/1881/0013546111&expand=true

[BobB1]

Marriage:
Spiers, Albert/Tonks, Ellen Amelia     W. Bromwich    6b   863  MarQ 1892
Births:
Spiers, Ida  Nellie     mmn Tonks          Aston         6d   436  MarQ 1892
Spiers, Grace  Mabel    mmn Tonks     Aston         6d   408  JunQ 1895

Thanks, MollyC

Yes, those are the ladies that I found. Its another intriguing angle, but nothing concrete yet.

I have scoured what information I can; local Birmingham theatres etc, but nothing seems to exist for them that I can find.

If someone has specialist knowledge of theatre/variety in that period, perhaps they might offer suggestions of where such records might exist?

Other than that, they disappear after the 1939 register entry.

[softly softly]

"Other than that, they disappear after the 1939 register entry."  --as in a puff of smoke?

Deaths Mar 1976   
SPIERS    IDA NELLIE    12FE1892    POOLE    23   1083

With regard to Grace Mabel--still searching.

SS

[josey]

Wonder if an obituary can be found for Ida Nellie? Might give stage name?