In search of a 2nd Great Grandfather.

[Stanwix England]

Hi everyone, I'm hoping someone here can talk me through how I might sort this issue out. I might be talking nonsense so apologies in advance.

I'm trying to find out who a missing 2nd Great Grandfather was. This is not the same man as my other post in the DNA section, this is a different branch, different man. I'm going to use hypothetical names here as I don't want to upset anyone who might see this.

Basically I'm descended from a woman called Mary Carson.

Mary Carson married John Forest and they had a couple of children, however because of what was clearly a troubled relationship - I'm not certain of the parentage of any of their children.

However the marriage broke down. John Forest left and joined the army. He lied on his sign up papers and claimed he was single. We know it's the same John Forest, because he gave his mother as next of kin, with the correct address she definitely lived at.

During, or perhaps because of the break up, at least one of the children, we'll call Tom Forest was sent to Canada by a charitable organisation. As far as I can tell, Tom Forest never had children.

I've found John Forest's army papers and had them verified by an expert, who was able to look at the movements of where John Forest would have been stationed. He was definitively abroad for a long period of the 1880s, and of such a low rank that he would not have been able to return home.

After John Forest had left the family, Mary Carson claimed to still be married to John Forest. She had many more children. There birth certificates all list John Forest as the father, even though this is not possible due to the relationship having broken down and John not being in the same country when these children were conceived.

I'm descended from one of these illegitimate children, a daughter I'll call Jane Carson.

So I'm trying to find out who the actual father of Jane Carson was, by looking through my DNA matches.

The issue I have is that when I look at some of the people I match with, they list John Forest as the father in their trees. I assume because they don't have the information that I do. It was hard to find.

I imagine that it's possible that among my matches, there may very well be people with the same 2nd Great Grandfather that I have, as he could very well have fathered other children.

But how do I sort it all out, when it's sort of a mess?

[CaroleW]

But how do I sort it all out, when it's sort of a mess?

None of your post gives any info re dates/ locations/childrens names etc etc.  You have posted on the DNA board so no clues there We don't even know what country or county you are referring to

Can I suggest you edit your post to include more relevant info to help us to help you

[Stanwix England]

Sorry I've deliberately left them out because I'm asking about the method of solving the problem. Also, I didn't want to upset anyone as I'm saying other people's trees are wrong and mine is right and I don't want to offend anyone who might come across this.

[CaroleW]

But how do you expect anybody to help when relevant facts are unknown?

[Stanwix England]

I'm asking about the method of sorting out matches in these circumstances. I'm not asking anyone to do it for me.

[Galium]

You have matches whose trees include John Forest as the father of Mary Carson's children.  So these people, like you are descended from Mary Carson, and you already know how you are related to them.

What you are looking for are possible descendents of Jane's father by another woman.  If they exist, they (probably) won't have Mary Carson in their tree.  You could try looking for matches who have ancestors from the same place as the Carson family, with a man who lived around the same time as Mary, but who don't share the names of Carson and Forest.  Are there any?  Do you find any surnames recurring in more than one tree of such matches.

Also, did Mary use any surnames when naming the children that you don't think were John Forest's?

[coombs]

I am not sure why some, when asking for advice and help, are reluctant to post date or name details of people long dead after others reply asking for more info. if it was living people I would understand more.

It would be like for example, someone asking to find a "John Smith born c1850 in London" then not giving any further details when asked, when there will be hundred and hundreds of John Smiths born in London c1850.

[Stanwix England]

I am not sure why some, when asking for advice and help, are reluctant to post date or name details of people long dead after others reply asking for more info. if it was living people I would understand more.

It would be like for example, someone asking to find a "John Smith born c1850 in London" then not giving any further details when asked, when there will be hundred and hundreds of John Smiths born in London c1850.

I'm sorry if I've caused upset. I think perhaps I was not clear enough in my original post.

The reason I'm not giving the names out is three fold.

Firstly, I'm not asking anyone to do the work for me as it would be too difficult. Anyone helping me would need access to my DNA results and to those of my matches. It's not a paper trail issue, and I'm expecting it to be a long and difficult process. It would be unreasonable to ask that of anyone.

Secondly, I'm asking people to help me work out the method of how I might go about solving this problem, which Galium has kindly provided me with guidance on. The actual names and dates are not necessary for getting to that, the method is the same for anyone in the same circumstances as me. That's what I was unclear on. I only gave the details that I did, because they were necessary to make the circumstances of my particular DNA problem clear.

Thirdly, while I understand that the people I'm talking about are long dead, their descendants are not and I'm making a bold claim that their trees are wrong and mine is right. While I'm pretty confident that I'm right and they are wrong, I don't want to go around upsetting anyone who might come across this. Particularly as I'm talking about illegitimacy. While that's no skin off my nose, I know from past experience that other people take that sort of thing very badly and I don't want to upset people for no reason.

I really wasn't trying to upset anyone here, I was trying to handle the issue with sensitivity, while also not wasting anyone's time by sending them off on an unnecessary search through paper records.

[larkspur]

I totally understand what you are asking for. I also have had this problem twice, but slightly different circumstances.  Great great grandmas who gave birth a couple of years before marriage. So the illegitimacy thing again! Other trees online insisting on giving them a father, even though I have both birth certificates with no father named. Luckily for me one was in an area of Scotland that was low on possibilities. The other from a small village in Staffordshire. The only branch of my family to come from there.
I checked out all of my DNA matches that had trees from these parts of the country and basically "tried out" the possible Gt Gt grandfathers once I had narrowed it down, by adding him to my tree and seeing how it worked out with cousin matches. Probably not a good way for those folk who prefer a more "educated" way of doing things, but this worked for me. The Scottish man was very straightforward, as a lot of his descendants had tested, and were a high match to me. The Staffs man I have managed to narrow down to three brothers. So although I dont know which is my 2x great I do know my 3x greats. I hope this makes sense?