Help with MacFhirbhisigh.

[Ghostwheel]

I looked at the glossary and the manuscript page which should list his religion is called a "terrier."

I believe there should be a button somewhere that says "view terrier", when you have it zoomed on the parish or else on the townland.

It should state whether they considered him a papist originally right next to his name.

Another Norman family I was interested were called Protestants by the website but Irish papists in the terrier.

[Wexflyer]

On the TCD site, the map for the barony of Carbury in Co. Kildare does not include the parish of Carbury. More precisely, the area where the parish of Carbury is, is blank, with just the parish name appearing in that space. Thus there is no parish map, and of course no terrier either.

My usual interpretation when I see this is that the entire parish was owned by Protestants, and therefore there was no need to survey and map it, as it was not going to be forfeit.

[Ghostwheel]

Thanks, Sinann and Wexflyer,

I feel sorry for making Sinann look for something that is not there.

I thought the number of English people seemed unusually high.

I guess another possibility is that part was lost or burned.

Is there any part of Kildare that survives?  I only recall looking at certain parts of Offaly and Westmeath.

I thought that most of the survey was destroyed, and it is only some books that a French privateer stole from an English ship which survive.  Or maybe, I am misremembering it?

I think for certain parts of Ireland, they already had good maps and so didn't survey them.  But I forget whether these have terriers or not.

[Wexflyer]

Thanks, Sinann and Wexflyer,

I feel sorry for making Sinann look for something that is not there.

I thought the number of English people seemed unusually high.

I guess another possibility is that part was lost or burned.

Is there any part of Kildare that survives?  I only recall looking at certain parts of Offaly and Westmeath.

I thought that most of the survey was destroyed, and it is only some books that a French privateer stole from an English ship which survive.  Or maybe, I am misremembering it?

I think for certain parts of Ireland, they already had good maps and so didn't survey them.  But I forget whether these have terriers or not.

The Barony map does survive, but Carbury parish isn't included. The rest of the barony of Carbury is mapped. However, individual parish maps don't seem to be on the website, and may not have  survived.  The blank space on the original barony map indicates that the parish of Carbury was never surveyed to begin with. Not everywhere was surveyed - it was a survey of land subject to forfeiture, and not everywhere was.

[Wexflyer]

Maybe someone else can chime in, but IIRC (from 20+ years ago, and so subject to error), then "English"  does not necessarily mean literally English, but more generally Protestant.

[Ghostwheel]

What I was thinking of earlier was the Stafford Survey.  That was the counties they had already mapped earlier, and which they mostly weren't confiscating.

But I don't think such a conclusion can be drawn for the local parish.

The website notes:

Only ‘a few burnt papers’ remained of Cavan, Fermanagh, Kildare, Louth, Monaghan, Mayo

https://downsurvey.tchpc.tcd.ie/map-sources.html
Quite possibly the barony map was just an imperfect copy, missing a lot of details.

I wonder if the family I am after could have been the 6 Irish.  But I suppose there is no way of knowing.

Seems like an odd place for an ordination.  But perhaps there were different people there in 1664.

I wonder how typical it would be for an ordination to happen at someone's home, in theory.  Though, I guess those weren't typical times.

[Wexflyer]

I think the online barony map is original. My opinion based on its decoration, in the style of the original maps. Also, copies I have seen, some on the TCD site, are stated to be copies on the map itself (and less decorated).

As for ordination, I don't think ordination in Ireland was common at all. There were no seminaries in Ireland at the time, or for well over 100 years later, so priestly training and ordinations typically (always?) occurred in the Irish colleges on the continent.

Or perhaps you mean consecrated, if you are speaking of the bishop? That could have occurred in Ireland, and would necessarily have been in secret - death penalty for Catholic bishops at the time....

[Ghostwheel]

Whoops, made a big error, if this source is accurate:

Doctor John Dempsey, appointed Bishop of Kildare and Leighlin in 1694, appears to have been a native of this Parish, and also to have resided in it. In the Return of Parish Priests, made in 1704, is the following:-“ John Dempsey, residing at Kilmurry, aged 63, P.P. of Kilraney, ordained on Whit Sunday, 1664, at Clonkeene, King’s County, by Anthony Geoghegan, Bishop of Meath; having for his sureties, Robert Daly of Calvesland,Gent., and Colonel John Wogan of Rathcoffy.” This entry most probably refers to the Bishop, (see Vol. I., p. 72 for corresponding dates.)   The Dempseys have continued to reside at Kilmurry up to our own times.

https://www.kildare.ie/ehistory/2006/07/carbury_parish_of_comerfords_d.asp

It was Clonkeen in Co. Offaly.  Elsewhere I thought I had read that it was the local Carbury Parish or Balyna Kildare, where John was a local priest or resided for a while.

I wonder how they knew it was his native parish.  Oral history maybe?  Don't know whether to take it at face value or not.

Here is presumably the right location on logainm:
https://www.logainm.ie/en/41656

If I follow, it doesn't appear on the Down Survey.

I looked at the fiant for 1602 and there was no Dempsy.  Not quite sure how to check the later sources yet.