Author Topic: Moved from Common Room - DNA query  (Read 852 times)

Offline chris_49

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Moved from Common Room - DNA query
« on: Friday 19 May 23 20:55 BST (UK) »

This thread is getting no further takers in the Common Room so I thought it better to move it here. Earlier posts can be found there in the thread "Lengthy Conundrum". I'm hoping that DNA experts might be able to at least narrow down who is N's father - this is for her, not me.

Please find enclosed a mini-tree in Notepad listing all known deceased descendants of Elizabeth Roberts, and known living ones in disguise where relevant. Three DNA matches are shown, as are a number of men who could be N's father, marked by an asterisk. These are by no means complete - the ?s refer to redacted people and unknown descendants (if any) of men who were single in 1939.

VH is N's late mother, displayed on the same possible generation line as her father. To recap, VH was a student in Birmingham in 1966 when she became pregnant with N. She later married another man who brought her daughter up. VH always refused to discuss the matter, but it was always believed that the father was an older man with a family, rather than a fellow student - but even if he was, he would not be younger than V.

The three DNA matches centiMorgans vary presumably because each is from a different generation. The father surely cannot be CW's brother or stepbrother because the match would be much stronger. Arthur Stenson junior only had a daughter (until he remarried in the 50's anyway) so the father must surely be a Hancox or a Lee?

The trouble is that the matches are all from the 2nd marriage onward, but most of those people lived in Nottingham and nearby, none went to the West Midlands conurbation, where all the Lees lived. The men starred in those later branches all had young families in the 60s - not that that would stop a man having an affair, I agree, but to do so in Birmingham would require a fair amount of stealth.

The exception is Joseph S Merchant for whom we have 1932-1990 but no marriage - he could be anywhere but N thinks he'd be too old to be her father, but maybe he lied about his age?

So the question is, do N's matches make a Hancox father more likely, or is a Lee father an equal possibility? (TB has not replied, PH has but has no knowledge of a link.) It's a shame there are no Lee matches but that branch has only been on the tree a short while, hopefully there will be some at some point.

Thanks in advance, Chris for N.

Since writing the above I've deduced that CW's brothers could be in the picture, but that pHs father JH and uncle GH are probably not, because if they were N's father PH would have more cMs in common with N than he does. I couldn't work out if the same logic would apply to the descendants of Harold and Gertrude Hancox.

No matches yet from anyone in the Lee branch.
Skelcey (Skelsey Skelcy Skeley Shelsey Kelcy Skelcher) - Warks, Yorks, Lancs <br />Hancox - Warks<br />Green - Warks<br />Draper - Warks<br />Lynes - Warks<br />Hudson - Warks<br />Morris - Denbs Mont Salop <br />Davies - Cheshire, North Wales<br />Fellowes - Cheshire, Denbighshire<br />Owens - Cheshire/North Wales<br />Hicks - Cornwall<br />Lloyd and Jones (Mont)<br />Rhys/Rees (Mont)

Offline Biggles50

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Re: Moved from Common Room - DNA query
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 20 May 23 22:31 BST (UK) »
Sorry

I refuse to Download any file.

Offline chris_49

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Re: Moved from Common Room - DNA query
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 21 May 23 08:48 BST (UK) »
Sorry

I refuse to Download any file.

I was mildly excited to note, eventually, a reply to this thread - so mildly dispirited to find this reply. But this is is a text-only file, in Notepad, less than 4kb is size - miniscule. I don't see how anybody could encrypt a virus into a file that size.

However, the width of the mini-tree means that it does not show properly in a Rootschat post. I'm going to post it anyway - it won't make any sense, but it just might work if you copy it back into Notepad or any similar program - I don't know if it would work with a full word processor.

It took a lot of work to compile the mini-tree. If you, or anyone else, are willing to help with this quest to find this lady's father, and if copying back doesn't work, I'm willing to rearrange it into a form that will show properly in Rootschat.

Thanks in advance, Chris

PS to Tristan - is it feasible to change the width of Rootschat posts?
Skelcey (Skelsey Skelcy Skeley Shelsey Kelcy Skelcher) - Warks, Yorks, Lancs <br />Hancox - Warks<br />Green - Warks<br />Draper - Warks<br />Lynes - Warks<br />Hudson - Warks<br />Morris - Denbs Mont Salop <br />Davies - Cheshire, North Wales<br />Fellowes - Cheshire, Denbighshire<br />Owens - Cheshire/North Wales<br />Hicks - Cornwall<br />Lloyd and Jones (Mont)<br />Rhys/Rees (Mont)

Offline chris_49

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Re: Moved from Common Room - DNA query
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 21 May 23 08:49 BST (UK) »
(Annie) Elizabeth Roberts 1878 married or lived with:

(1)Arthur Lee 1872-~~~~~~~~----(2) Joseph Hancox 1875--------------------------------------(3) William Rider 1881-----(4) Arthur Stenson 1862---(5) Daniel Buckley
       |______________________________________________________________________                                  |__________________________________                      |                             |
       |                                          |                          |                                  |                   |             |                      |                             |
Beatrice                                        Fanny                    Arthur W                             Harold              George          Gertrude              Edith                        Arthur J
Lee 1896                                        Lee 1897                 Lee 1900                           Hancox 1903          Hancox 1906     Hancox 1909            Rider 1914                   Stenson 1919
m Thomas                                        m William N              m Sarah                             m Laura             m Bertha        m Joseph R          m Frank  m Charles              m Frances
Thornton                                          Clarke                 Fleetwood                            Durham              Rossall         Merchant              Page   Woodward                Page
       |_________________________________          |___________            |______________________             |___________        |__________      |___________         |       |__________            |
       |       |           |            |          |           |           |          |          |             |          |        |         |      |          |         |       |         |            |
 Florrie     Frederick   Walter     daughter      Genevieve  2 redacted   Dorothy    Arthur H   Walter B     2 sisters    BH  *    JH  *     GH     Joseph S   RM       CP      MW        CH         daughter          VH 1948
Thornton     Thornton    Thornton    1931         Clarke      (1939)       Lee         Lee      Lee          wed 1950s    1939     1941     1943    Merchant   1936    1938    1946      1948          1947               |
1917         1920         1921      wed 1967      1922          ??         1929        1931     1934                       |        |         *      1932       *                       (Match)                           |
m Walter      ?             ?                    m Leslie              (wed 1957)       *        *                         |        |                  *                                 238 cM                           N
Wilson                                             Goule                                                                  MH       PH                                                                                (DNA test) 
1949                                               1940                                                                    |     (Match)
                                                    |___________                                                           |     178 cM
                                                    |          |                                                          TB
                                                  son     2 others                                                   (DNA match)                                                       
                                                 1943                                                                   46 cM
Skelcey (Skelsey Skelcy Skeley Shelsey Kelcy Skelcher) - Warks, Yorks, Lancs <br />Hancox - Warks<br />Green - Warks<br />Draper - Warks<br />Lynes - Warks<br />Hudson - Warks<br />Morris - Denbs Mont Salop <br />Davies - Cheshire, North Wales<br />Fellowes - Cheshire, Denbighshire<br />Owens - Cheshire/North Wales<br />Hicks - Cornwall<br />Lloyd and Jones (Mont)<br />Rhys/Rees (Mont)


Offline chris_49

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Re: Moved from Common Room - DNA query
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 21 May 23 08:55 BST (UK) »
It works! At least copied back into Notepad - it displays identically. Libre Office version (you have to choose Web View rather than normal) is not very readable.
Skelcey (Skelsey Skelcy Skeley Shelsey Kelcy Skelcher) - Warks, Yorks, Lancs <br />Hancox - Warks<br />Green - Warks<br />Draper - Warks<br />Lynes - Warks<br />Hudson - Warks<br />Morris - Denbs Mont Salop <br />Davies - Cheshire, North Wales<br />Fellowes - Cheshire, Denbighshire<br />Owens - Cheshire/North Wales<br />Hicks - Cornwall<br />Lloyd and Jones (Mont)<br />Rhys/Rees (Mont)

Offline chris_49

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Re: Moved from Common Room - DNA query
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 21 May 23 09:08 BST (UK) »
It works! At least copied back into Notepad - it displays identically. Libre Office version (you have to choose Web View rather than normal) is not very readable.

except that Son, 1943 should have a star. He is one of the prime father suspects.
Skelcey (Skelsey Skelcy Skeley Shelsey Kelcy Skelcher) - Warks, Yorks, Lancs <br />Hancox - Warks<br />Green - Warks<br />Draper - Warks<br />Lynes - Warks<br />Hudson - Warks<br />Morris - Denbs Mont Salop <br />Davies - Cheshire, North Wales<br />Fellowes - Cheshire, Denbighshire<br />Owens - Cheshire/North Wales<br />Hicks - Cornwall<br />Lloyd and Jones (Mont)<br />Rhys/Rees (Mont)

Offline Carmella

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Re: Moved from Common Room - DNA query
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 21 May 23 14:15 BST (UK) »
Hi Chris,

A few suggestions:

Does N have her DNA on all the major DNA databases? (I've found some matches only test with one company)

Have you tried inputting N's DNA values into the "What Are The Odds" tool on the DNA Painter website?

Have you tried figuring out who N's Grandparents are first - are there any DNA matches to her potential father's mother's ancestral lines for example...

I don't know how long you've been working with DNA but here's a link with resources on searching for close relatives -

https://dna-explained.com/2023/04/07/dna-in-search-ofyour-grandparents/


Offline chris_49

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Re: Moved from Common Room - DNA query
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 21 May 23 14:41 BST (UK) »
Hi Chris,

A few suggestions:

Does N have her DNA on all the major DNA databases? (I've found some matches only test with one company)

Have you tried inputting N's DNA values into the "What Are The Odds" tool on the DNA Painter website?

Have you tried figuring out who N's Grandparents are first - are there any DNA matches to her potential father's mother's ancestral lines for example...

I don't know how long you've been working with DNA but here's a link with resources on searching for close relatives -

https://dna-explained.com/2023/04/07/dna-in-search-ofyour-grandparents/

Thank you very much for replying. I'll have a look at the sites you mention.

N was adopted, and only reunited with her birth mother V not long before the latter's death, by then V had dementia and was either unable or unwilling to give any information. So that side of the tree is well established. N's grandparents on her father's side cannot be known until her father is known.

Did you manage to get a look at the mini-tree? I hope it helps. The three matches shown are all from Ancestry matches, and all from the same side, all descended from Elizabeth Roberts - as is one of N's father's parents presumably. The other match, R, is from MyHeritage and doesn't seem to relate to the others - presumably from N's father's other parent. We are awaiting a result from R's mother which may give more information.

What other DNA companies are worth using for recent UK matches?
Skelcey (Skelsey Skelcy Skeley Shelsey Kelcy Skelcher) - Warks, Yorks, Lancs <br />Hancox - Warks<br />Green - Warks<br />Draper - Warks<br />Lynes - Warks<br />Hudson - Warks<br />Morris - Denbs Mont Salop <br />Davies - Cheshire, North Wales<br />Fellowes - Cheshire, Denbighshire<br />Owens - Cheshire/North Wales<br />Hicks - Cornwall<br />Lloyd and Jones (Mont)<br />Rhys/Rees (Mont)

Offline Carmella

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Re: Moved from Common Room - DNA query
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 21 May 23 16:16 BST (UK) »
So, the last time I checked, Ancestry had the biggest autosomal matching database followed by 23andme. Then it's MyHeritage and LivingDNA.

I should point out that there's a big element of luck involved with DNA databases and you don't know who's in a database until you submit your sample.  If funds allow N could buy a new test from 23andme and upload her Ancestry raw data to LivingDNA  & pay the unlock fee. (I've not found 23andme or LivingDNA as "genealogy friendly" as there is often much less info on your matches when compared to Ancestry and MyHeri - but if I got a crucial cousin match I wouldn't complain!).

HOWEVER - you may not need any more tests if your result with R helps and provides more shared matches to work with!  Try building R's tree backwards and sideways to try and find the link.