Bobby Dickens, Liverpool to Australia

[CaroleW]

When was your gran born & when did she marry?  When was her first child born after she married?  That can help to give us a possible timescale but with a surname like Smith you have quite a job on your hands😱

[CaroleW]

Just a thought.  It's possible his adoptive parents retained his christian name.

Between 1930-1939 there were only 2 Smith/Smith births in Liverpool with that christian name

[Ruskie]

Did you know that your grandmother had had an illegitimate son who was adopted? (Before you took a DNA test)

We know he was my grandma's baby because of the DNA match with me, my sister and my aunt. We're looked at it every which way, but this is the only explanation due to the high match.

How high are your high matches?

I’m not doubting the conclusions you’ve come to as you seem to have been very thorough, but am curious to know how you worked out that your DNA match’s father was your grandmother’s illegitimate son. 

As well as your sister and aunt do you have any other mutual matches with this person? Have you made contact with them?

[KatieVS1]

Hi.

There are 6 Robert Smiths born with MMN Smith between 1930 and 1939. I have all their birth certificates! I also searched using Birkenhead, Ormskirk, West Derby etc.

Yes we've joined forces with our match in Australia to try and solve this. She's sleuthing things in Australia and us here. The highest match is 852cM. My grandma did have another illegitimate child who sadly died, and on those birth and death certificates I find my grandma living in a home for unwed mothers and in a home for women with VD. She had a tough life, she was given up herself as a baby. But we weren't aware of another illegitimate baby, and she never talked about her past to my Mum (who sadly died 22 years ago).

We don't have any other shared matches with our 'cousin' in Australia. Just me, my sister and my aunt. 

My grandma was born in 1910, and she married in 1939 (when she was already pregnant with my Mum, who didn't belong to my grandad - I know, it's very complicated!).

Thank you all for having a think, it's helpful even to make sure I'm thinking logically.

Katie

[Ruskie]

That is a very sad story Katie.

852cM is substantial. If you have all six of those birth certificates, you have definitely been thorough.

The only thing I can think is that either his birth was not registered, or the name your Australian
contact gave you was incorrect (accidentally or intentionally) or he was registered under a different name. That doesn’t help you at all I’m sorry, and I’m sure you would already have considered those plus other possibilities.

It may be a case of holding out for some DNA matches.  Have you uploaded your raw data from Ancestry to other companies and Gedmatch? If not it might be worth doing so. I suggest all of you who match on that line also upload to all sites.

 I’m not sure about other sites, but My Heritage has an Autocluster tool, which groups all related matches which may be of use. Unlocking the tools incurs a fee though but only one of you would need to pay the fee to see all others who matched with you.

It is already complicated enough, but might it be possible that you and your Australian match are related through a different line? Grandmother seems the obvious one from what you say, but is it possible you are looking for an illegitimate child that she didn’t have? Could Robert be related to another family member?

I’m sure you’ve seen this:
https://dnapainter.com/tools/sharedcmv4

I’m confused by it, but I’ll leave it with you. 

[Neale1961]

This enquiry (which made very little sense when I read it) appears to be related.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=869947.msg7409353

[KatieVS1]

That is a very sad story Katie.

852cM is substantial. If you have all six of those birth certificates, you have definitely been thorough.

The only thing I can think is that either his birth was not registered, or the name your Australian
contact gave you was incorrect (accidentally or intentionally) or he was registered under a different name. That doesn’t help you at all I’m sorry, and I’m sure you would already have considered those plus other possibilities.

It may be a case of holding out for some DNA matches.  Have you uploaded your raw data from Ancestry to other companies and Gedmatch? If not it might be worth doing so. I suggest all of you who match on that line also upload to all sites.

 I’m not sure about other sites, but My Heritage has an Autocluster tool, which groups all related matches which may be of use. Unlocking the tools incurs a fee though but only one of you would need to pay the fee to see all others who matched with you.

It is already complicated enough, but might it be possible that you and your Australian match are related through a different line? Grandmother seems the obvious one from what you say, but is it possible you are looking for an illegitimate child that she didn’t have? Could Robert be related to another family member?

I’m sure you’ve seen this:
https://dnapainter.com/tools/sharedcmv4

I’m confused by it, but I’ll leave it with you. 

I know, it's really sad. Especially for the Australian lady who's been looking for her Dad her whole life. Yes, we've been on GedMatch and MyHeritage, and have used the DNA Painter, which always points pretty much 100% to my Grandma being her Dad's son. The theory of the baby not being registered is an awful possibility, but it's a possibility nonetheless - for example foundling or similar.

We will persevere!!

Katie

[Ruskie]

Sadly, this might just have to be a DNA waiting game. 

Please let us know if you get a breakthrough.

Can I just ask …. Does your Australian contact have any matches at all to her father’s side of the family? (Even if they do not match with you)

[KatieVS1]

Yes, my Australian match has two significant matches (500+) on her Dad's side. I went and met one of them in a pub in Liverpool! They knew nothing about her, and had been wondering about the match. It means we found her great grandparents. I did some sleuthing and found the grandaughter of the most likely man to be my Australian match's grandad, but unfortunately she didn't want to help. The other two brothers didn't have children that I could stalk. But all of the brothers would have been in Toxteth at exactly the right time (where my Grandma was). It's been fascinating, and it's been nice for my Australian match to learn more about her ancestors (and we can go way back), but it hasn't helped us find her actual Dad. 

The saddest thing, is that if 'Robert' didn't have any more children, then there will be no more DNA matches out there that could lead us to him