Elizabeth Davies - Caio

[CaioResearcher]

Dane,

Thank you for the reply.  I think we may have spoken before in the past.  I am told by a relative that the father was Sir James Drummond's brother, but which one?

Sorry I haven't got back before but circumstances were difficult.  The child (Elizabeth) as I said was born 1874 (17th Feb) to the mother Mary Davies.  I was wondering, as later in life, Elizabeth 'inherited' quite a bit of money and this has been confirmed by someone still living today in Cwrt, do you have any paperwork or details of trusts from the Drummonds to this Elizabeth or perhaps a Ward of Chancery as I believe they call it in Ireland?  The man she put down as 'father' on her marriage certificate could have been made the 'ward' his name was John Davies (no relative).  I have searched this family for so long and are just stuck here, although I do know Elizabeth's grandparents, as she lived with them.  I have also found her place of birth which was basically a shed known on her certificate as 'the school house'.  A place where visiting ministers stayed.  I understand that James Hamlyn Williams Drummond (b.1857) had 3 brothers, Edwin, Hugh and Francis???  Where there any twins in the family??

Look forward to hearing from you.

Regards

[DaneGarrod]

In reply to the suggestion, and I think it has to be that as you'll see from the data, that a Drummond brother fathered Elizabeth Davies, here is the fullest information.

Apart from the eldest, James (Later Sir James, and known as Joe), the others are Edwin b. 1858  d. 1864, so that let's him out as he was dead long before 1874.  Next is Hugh born 1859 and finally Dudley born 1863.  I think we have to say that these boys aged 14 and 10 when Elizabeth was conceived are not the father, don't you agree?

That only leaves Sir James Williams-Drummond himself, who would have been only 16 when the child was conceived.  Possible, but I feel unlikely, because of his age and especially because you were told a brother of Sir James was the father.  Over to you Caio Researcher for comments.  Oh yes, their father died in 1866, so he's not the father of Elizabeth either.  That's all the boys (one sister- Annabella, born 1854 and eldest child).  No twins in any generation before or after.

Dane.

[CaioResearcher]

Dane,

Thanks for the reply.  Baffles me but relatives (one in particular in Llanelli who is great granddaughter and told by 'the illigitimate chid' Elizabeth herself) that the father was definitely from the Drummond family and it was she who told me it was a brother of Sir James Drummond.  The only other one I can think of is Charles, brother of Sir James born 1814??  This Elizabeth born February, 1874, mother Mary was 29 when she had her which is also in some ways confusing to me because she would, I thought, have been older and wiser, not a young girl without knowledge, if you know what I mean!  The only other thing I can think of to put this to rest is to search how she 'came into thousands' as I'm told - do you have any paperwork or point me in the right direction with regards to perhaps a 'trust' or 'will' that could have been left to the child Elizabeth, hence her 'inheritance' at or after her marriage.
The search continues..............

[DaneGarrod]

Helen

No, I have no documents other than Wills.  Of Joe Drummond (died 1913) and of his wife, Madeline, (died 1907).  No mention of any other people than their only child (yet another James), or Madeline's seven other children (she was widowed early).  Also have Wills of Joe's parents, Sir James (3rd Baronet) and Mary Eleanor, but no mention of any other bequests there.

You mention Charles Drummond, brother of the 3rd Baronet, so you're going back a generation there.  He retired as a Rear Admiral in 1855, so by 1873/4 he'd be very very elderly - probably dead actually, as born about 1792.  Other brother of this generation is Orlando who died 1831.  It's not this generation, as it's clearly the wrong period.  You're back to Joe now (4th Baronet), and we've dealt with his brothers as being children in 1873/4.  Just perhaps it was 16/17 year old Joe, who was well loved by the ladies as is shown by letters from 1874 onwards.  Yes, the year you speak off is a year he was receiving letters of undying love from distant cousins etc, some 5 years older than his 17 years.  Perhaps they also liked the idea of the land, the house, and the title....

I assume you live in Caio (what the Americans call C-A-ten, I understand!), so when I'm down to Edwinsford next spring, you might like to talk with me in the local pub perhaps.  I shall have some letters etc with me (I always seem to!).

I might be able to get you into the ruined mansion and grounds etc. for a look-see, should you be interested to do so.

Keep in touch.

Dane Garrod Moderator comment: phone number removed - please use the Pm system to exchange such details

[buckaroo]

Caio Researcher/DaneGarrod

Try this website,

http://isys.llgc.org.uk/

It allows you to search the archives at the National Library of Wales at Abeystwyth by keyword, be that place or name.  It's wise to try several variations of a name as the spelling is anything but consistent.  The descrpitions of the collections can be quite lengthy, I use the 'Find on this page' function really useful, shortcut by pressing 'Ctrl + F' keys together.

The online material is being added to regularly so it's worth revisiting from time to time.  I've managed to find some personal correspondence of 4xGr Grandmother, and diary entries of a 4xGr uncle, also from Cwrt y cadno as it happens.  Now I just need to get to Aberystwyth to access the files... here's hoping!

Happy hunting,
Buckaroo

[jimwalkersligo]

Hello from California, USA!

I have read with interest some mails regarding Williams-Drummonds and related topics. I see also that you have a family tree for the Drummonds?

Sir James Williams-Drummond born 11 Aug 1814, died 10 May 1866 - married to: Mary Eleanor Hamlyn Williams is a G great uncle of mine. (dates may be off)

I was wondering if this is the same line that is being discussed on Rootschat, etc? And if you might be able to assist me in my quest to identify my ancestors please?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

My contact information is below.

Thank you for your time.

Kind Regards,

Jim Walker

Moderator comment: email address and other personal information removed.  Please pass this to interested parties by personal message.  Thanks

[jimwalkersligo]

 email address and other personal information removed.  Please pass this to interested parties by personal message.

How would I do that?

[Arranroots]

Hi Jim

You're welcome to post details of the Drummonds on here but we don't allow email addresses and links to personal Youtube threads on the boards.

Now that you have made three posts you should be able to use the PM system to send that info if it is requested. You just need to click on the green 'scroll' under the name of the person you want to contact.

Let me know if you need more help

Kind regards, Arranroots

[brawd houdini]

Hello CaioResearcher and everyone else,

For a history of at least part of the Johnes family of Dolaucothi I would suggest reading 'Peacocks in Paradise' by Elizabeth Inglis-Jones.It is essentially about the Hafod Estate in Cardiganshire.However,this was the property of Thomas Johnes of Dolaucothi and there is quite a bit of info. on the Dolaucothi estate.If nothing else it's a terrific read.

As to the Drummonds of Edwinsford I refer you to www.carmarthenshirehistorian.org
Type in Edwinsford in the search box and you will find a quite thorough history of the Drummonds and references to other places mentioned here on Rootschat.

Hope this helps,good luck with you search,
brawdhoudini