Martha ? - Robert PHILLIPS marriage

[Rob - Leicester]

Hello Nottingham RootsChatters

I am trying to find the parents for Martha Brown born around 1811 in Brinsley. I have found two potential baptisms that fit and I am trying to eliminate one or the other. Martha later became Martha Gadsby and was my 4 x G Grandmother. She consistently states in the census's that Brinsley is her birthplace.

Baptism 7 Jan 1810 : Brinsley Daughter of Samuel and Ruby Brown.
Baptism 23 Dec 1810 : St Lawrence, Heanor, Derbyshire. Parents = Wm & Mary.

As well as the census birthplaces there are other connections with Brinsley which made me lean towards Samuel and Ruby but someone has pointed out a possible problem!

The 1841 Census for Brinsley shows Samuel Brown age 70 living with Abraham Brown age 20 (likely his son baptised 2 Apr 1818 Brinsley) and Robert and Martha Phillips age 30. Also their children Robert Phillips age 4 and John age 1.

If Martha Phillips was Samuel & Ruby's daughter, Martha Brown, then she can't be Martha Gadsby and Samuel and Ruby are out of the search... But I cannot find a marriage between a Robert Phillips and Martha Brown (which I guess is good but I'd like to know who they are one way or the other to be sure) or even to Martha something-else.

I wonder if anyone can shine a light on this for me?

Many Thanks

Rob

[rosie99]

The 1841 Census for Brinsley shows Samuel Brown age 70 living with Abraham Brown age 20 (likely his son baptised 2 Apr 1818 Brinsley) and Robert and Martha Phillips age 30. Also their children Robert Phillips age 4 and John age 1.

1841 that you mention
Stone Row, Greasley, Basford.  HO107/857 book 4 folio 10 page 12
Neighbours to a John Brown

You say that Martha later became a Gadsby, did she marry Mr Gadsby as that record should name her father

[Annie65115]

Is this Martha's marraige?
1832 10 14   Edward   GADSBY   Martha   BROWN   RADFORD St Peter

If so, then sadly a marriage cert isn't going to give you the father's name(as I'm sure you know). But have you seen the parish register to see if the names of witnesses give any clues?

I can't find a marriage between Robert PHILIPS and Martha either. But strangely, the children who are with them in 1841 would fit these baptisms (plus another one -- the oldest, presumably he died?). All say abode Brinsley:

1836 07 31 GREASLEY St Mary      Samuel   father Robert   GILBORN, labourer; mother Martha      

1838 06 24   GREASLEY St Mary      Robert   father Robert   GILBORN, labourer; mother Martha      
   
1840 10 04   GREASLEY St Mary      John    father Robert   GILBORNE, labourer; mother Martha      

Then maybe this might sort-of match this marriage:
1835 06 08   Robert   GILMAN   Martha   BROWN   at EASTWOOD St Mary

I can see how Gilman and Gilborn/e might be confused but not where Phillips might come in!!

[Annie65115]

If I'm looking at the right Martha in the censuses, her age was, shall we say, "flexible" -- yob 1821 in 1861, 1808 in 1871 and 1811 in 1881. She was said to be 81 when she died in 1889 (so 1808 again).

[rosie99]

I had (wrongly) assumed that the Gadsby marriage was later than the Phillips one mentioned.  So Annie is correct if the 1835 marriage is the one then no father will be shown.

[Rob - Leicester]

Wow - you are quick workers in Nottingham! Many thanks for the replies so far...

Ooops - When I said that Martha later became a Gadsby I meant after being a Brown! I.e. she only married the once to Edward Gadsby in 1832. It's a long story - they separated in around 1840 and she temporarily became Martha Blyth. I spent hours writing a biography in WikiTree if you want to see all the gory details! https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Brown-116040

Yes the mysterious Phillips lived in Stone Row - and that Gilborn similarity is interesting... I also noticed that Martha is inconsistent with her age! I'm chomping at the bit to look some more but I have to get the dinner cooked right now...

[Rob - Leicester]

Finally I think I've solved this! Here are my notes explaining my reasoning in case it's useful to someone in the future...

Martha Brown. Wife of Edward Gadsby and Joseph Blyth. Born 1810/1811 Brinsley, Derbyshire.


Martha Brown says she was born in Brinsley, Nottinghamshire - she says so in all the census returns that she appears in. Her age however isn't so consistent:-
1851 - age = 36 - born 1815 1861 - age = 40 - born 1821 1871 - age = 63 - born 1808 1881 - age = 70 - born 1811

There are two possible baptisms near to Brinsley at this time. The first was in Greasley, Notts 7th Jan 1810 . Daughter of Samuel and Ruby Brown.

The second baptism was in the nearby parish church of Heanor 23rd Dec 1810. Daughter of William and Mary Browne. Heanor and Greasley are both a similar distance from Brinsley.


At first it seemed likely that Samuel and Ruby Brown were more likely to be ‘our' Martha's parents because the family have connections with Brinsley. Sons Abraham and Robert were also baptised at Greasley and the residence is shown as Brinsley, Ruby Brown died in 1828 and her burial record (in Greasley) shows her residence as Brinsley. This however no longer seems the case. Note : it is believed that Ruby Brown was Ruby Bowler before she married.


Reasoning to believe that Martha Brown (daughter of Samuel and Ruby Brown) is not the wife of Joseph Blythe.

Samuel Brown is living in Brinsley in the 1841 census age 70, with his son Abraham. They are living with Robert Phillips and his wife Martha along with their two children Robert (age 4) and John (age 1). Who is Martha Phillips? Could she be Samuel's daughter?
I cannot find a marriage for Robert Phillips and a Martha... and in a strange twist when I looked for the Phillips family in 1851 they had gone. Robert died early in 1851 and in the census that followed a few weeks later Martha and her two sons seem to have changed their surname to 'Gilborn' and have several other children with them!

An earlier reply to this query kindly gave me a series of baptism records:-

1836 07 31 GREASLEY St Mary      Samuel   father Robert   GILBORN, labourer; mother Martha      
1838 06 24 GREASLEY St Mary      Robert   father Robert   GILBORN, labourer; mother Martha      
1840 10 04 GREASLEY St Mary      John    father Robert   GILBORNE, labourer; mother Martha      

and a marriage:
1835 06 08   Robert   GILMAN   Martha   BROWN   at EASTWOOD St Mary

We wondered are Gilman and Gilborn the same?

In 1851 Martha Gilborn has six children with her :-
Robert b.1838
John b.1841
Ann b.1842
Samuel b.1845
William b.1846
James b.1851

Samuel 1845? But we have a Samuel baptised in 1836... so did he die in infancy?

Sadly yes - and look at his surname from FamilySearch...

Name        Samuel Phillips Or Gilman
Event Type        Death
Event Date        1837
Event Place        Basford, Nottinghamshire, England
Registration District        Basford
Page        280
Volume        15
Affiliate Line Number        2
Registration Quarter        Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration Year        1837

and from FreeBMD we have.

Surname         First name(s)         Age         District         Vol         Page
Deaths Sep 1837
Gilman         Samuel                  Basford         15        280
Phillips         Samuel                  Basford         15        280
Gilman         Samuel                  Basford         15        280


Strangely the GRO has this birth record:-

Name:        Mother's Maiden Surname:
GILMAN, SAMUEL            -  
GRO Reference: 1838  D Quarter in BASFORD UNION COUNTIES OF NOTTINGHAM & DERBY  Volume 15  Page 403

Was this child born out of wedlock to a relative of Robert Gilman and named 'Samuel' in honour of the late infant?

All this leads me to the conclusion that Martha Brown (daughter of Samuel and Ruby Brown) is not the wife of Joseph Blythe, she being the daughter of William and Mary Browne baptised in the  parish church of Heanor 23rd Dec 1810.

Thanks for the previous help all!