Gray/Joass Pitsligo

[DouglasH]

 Seeking chinks in my Granite wall, any hints welcome.
  James Gray was born 1804, parents unmarried David Gray and Isabel Cruickshank.
Kirk sessions record that this was a second lapse for Isabella, previous child being taken to live with father.
  David paid fine and moved to Rosehearty, re-enlisted in Volunteers 1805.
Witnesses include George Gray husband to Jean Scott resident in Barnyards of Pitsligo as was Isabel.
A David Gray candlemaker deceased is recorded on James death certificate.
Two possibles found; David Gray m Helen Ross monquitter 1805.
David Gray buried St Marys Banff 1832 age 50, he is son of James Gray and Jessy Gordon ,Baptised 1892
  No other details found. Ideas on where to look next?

[Forfarian]

Where does Joass come into this? Is there a connection with the various threads about Joss/Joass in Banffshire and elsewhere?

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=417789.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=554659.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=556768.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=852980.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=868256.0

There may be others as well.

[DouglasH]

Mea Culpa, have amended titie.was still half thinking of Joass link whence James married a Helen Joass who is part of the family under discussion

[Forfarian]

Ah, so this is James Gray who married Helen Joss in Peterhead in 1833.

David Gray buried St Marys Banff 1832 age 50, he is son of James Gray and Jessy Gordon ,Baptised 1892

If he was 50 in 1832 he must have been born in 1781/1782, surely?

Also, if he was the son of James G and Jessy Gordon, baptised 1792, he would only have been 11 or 12 in 1803, which is not old enough to father a child born in 1804.

(Unless he was baptised as an adult, but I don't think he was was because James G and Jess* Gordon had children baptised in 1787, 1790, 1792, 1794, 1795, and 1799.)

David paid fine and moved to Rosehearty

Rosehearty is actually in the parish of Pitsligo, and the Kirk Session minute describes him as in Rosehearty. I interpret that part of the Kirk Session record as meaning that he was intending to leave the parish of Pitsligo, not that he was moving to Rosehearty.

Where and when did James Gray b 1804 die?

[DouglasH]

  James did marry Helen in Peterhead and also Gamrie.
With regard to David, I agree with your maths re d.o.b. Parents didn't marry til 1784 so there is a discrepancy  between age recorded on grave and christening.  possible birth legitamised and late christening. Maths re Monquitter also don,t really tally.
  Seeking anything that helps cast light on the issues.
The KS does read that he promised to leave the parish,not that he actually did.

[GR2]

  James did marry Helen in Peterhead and also Gamrie.

There would only be one marriage. The reason for there being entries in two parishes is because when bride and groom were from different parishes, the banns were read in both places. You should always look at both entries, as one sometimes gives details missed by he other.

[DouglasH]

James died1874, Macduff, My maternal grandparents are both descended from him and Helen Joass,
point taken about 2 records,neither help.

[Forfarian]

James did marry Helen in Peterhead and also Gamrie.

They didn't marry twice. What this means is that one of them lived in Peterhead and the other in Gamrie, so the banns had to be proclaimed in both parishes, so you get two records of the same marriage. One or other of the records will probably clarify where the wedding took place, but if not, it most likely took place in her home.

With regard to David, I agree with your maths re d.o.b. Parents didn't marry til 1784 so there is a discrepancy  between age recorded on grave and christening.  possible birth legitamised and late christening.

No. He was born on 7 February 1792 and baptised five days later. See attached screenshot. He is not the father of your James Gray as he had only just turned 12 years old when David Gray and Isabella Cruickshank were disciplined in February 1804. 

The KS does read that he promised to leave the parish,not that he actually did.

Indeed it does.

The point is that he did not 'go to Rosehearty' because he was already there.

[DouglasH]

Thank you for the clear copy of Davids Baptism, my copy has a barely legible birth year. Does rule him out as father,also makes me realise I had assumed David age 50 buried in the Gordon/Gray plot was the son,although not actually specified. Will have to look at other possible relationships.
  Apologies for lazy speak,meant to indicate I had looked at both marriage records, although having just checked cannot find copy of Peterhead one. also trying to indicate had searched post 1805 for whereabouts of David. Not a common Gray christian name but no links found to Whaling family of Peterhead where it is repeated.
  Informant on James' Death Certificate has no known connection to the family,so Candlemaker Banff deceased could be a red herring.