Travellers 148 Occupation Rd, Belvedere, Kent

[afb57]

A search for this address has led me to this board. My relative, Dorothy Holford lived here in the mid-late 1940s with her husband James Holford whose occupation has been recorded as general provisions dealer or master grocer. I have found little about James Holford's early life though he was "married" before to Annie who died in 1944 though no marriage has been found. James Holford may have used the surname Holker.

Did James Holford have a shop locally and was 148 Occupation Rd a lodging house? There are 37 people on the electoral register here in 1948 and high occupancy in previous years. An earlier post on this sub forum refers to some traveller families having lived at this address.

Any information would be very much appreciated.

[CaroleW]

Was Dorothy formerly Boniface?  The marriage was 1945.  Do you have a copy of the marriage cert showing James Holford’s fathers name?

Was Dorothy previously married?  If so - What was her birth surname

Looking at the 1939 register entry for James would make him 70 when he married Dorothy

[afb57]

Yes, Dorothy Holford's maiden name was Boniface and she was a spinster when she married on 26 Mar 1945. The marriage certificate states that James Holford was a master grocer, a widower and his father was named as William Holford, deceased engineer iron moulder. The marriage was short lived as James was significantly older than her. He died 10 Feb 1950 and is buried in the Brooke St cemetery, Erith as is his first "wife" Annie who died 23 Aug 1944. Dorothy is recorded as living at 146 Occupation Rd and a grocers assistant at the time of marriage.

[CaroleW]

Annie Holford is shown as 72 when she died in 1944 but was only 60 in 1939??  James age at death fits his 1939 details

Have you found James & Annie on the 1921 census?

[afb57]

I haven't found them on the 1921 census though they appear to be living at 587 Seven Sisters Rd, Tottenham South on 1922 electoral register and 37 Oscar st, Deptford in 1928 assuming its the same couple. The earliest record ( which I've found ) of this couple in Occupation Rd is the 1932 electoral register.
There is an account  in Folkestone and Hythe District Herald  6 Jul 1940 of  Annie Holford of 148 Occupation Rd, Belvedere being  fined £10.00 for allowing a caravan to be inhabited for more than 42 consecutive days at Dunkirk End, Dymchurch.

[CitizenSmith]

Hello afb57

Occupation Road, Belvedere, was one of the main "roads" through the centre of a permanent Romany Gypsy/Traveller encampment. Called the "Belvedere Marsh Romany Encampment" it existed on that site since at least 1900 or so.

The majority of the people living there were Romanies/Travellers but there were also some non-Gypsies. They lived in mixture of vans, tents, wooden sheds and bungalows. There is a book about the community written by someone who was born there in the 1930s and grew up there - Betsy Stanley. It's called "Memories of the Marsh: A Traveller Life in Kent" and is available from the Romany and Traveller Family History Society. It's listed on their Publications page.

As well as being the autobiography of the author, the book includes a map of the "plots" along Occupation Road, plus a list of the names of the people who lived on each plot. "Alford's shop" is in that list. I would suggest that the Alfords lived there on their business premises rather than it being a shop only.

There were moves by the local authorities in the run-up to the Second World War and during it to move the inhabitants of the Encampment so that the land could be turned into allotments and public space. Its final demise was triggered by the dramatic 1953 floods of that area which destroyed many homes in the Encampment and its surroundings as well as loss of life.

[CitizenSmith]

Apologies - should have added that the author of the book was recalling the names of her neighbours from 40 years earlier when she recorded her memories on tape in the 1990s. I have no doubt that the your Holfords were her Alfords, perhaps with a dropped "H".

[afb57]

Hi Citizen Smith,

Thank you for your information. I have been on quite a journey since my first post as I knew nothing about the Traveller community or life on the Marshes. I have got a copy of Betsy Stanley's book and have also concluded that Alford and Holford were the same person as her description fits the information I have.

I have since added "Alfords" and similar sounding names to the Holfords and Halfords I have been researching though I haven't found any further information about James Holford's earlier life. I continue to hope that I may find out more at some point and I'm open to suggestions of where else to look.

[smileyface471686]

Hi Citizen Smith,

Thank you for your information. I have been on quite a journey since my first post as I knew nothing about the Traveller community or life on the Marshes. I have got a copy of Betsy Stanley's book and have also concluded that Alford and Holford were the same person as her description fits the information I have.

I have since added "Alfords" and similar sounding names to the Holfords and Halfords I have been researching though I haven't found any further information about James Holford's earlier life. I continue to hope that I may find out more at some point and I'm open to suggestions of where else to look.

My parents who also contributed to my cousin Betsy Stanleys book often spoke about going to Alfords shop on the marsh where they all lived. Mum and Dad always pronounced it Allfud as in Alford. Betsy Stanley was my mother Betsy Coopers niece. In the book my parents are Betsy and Bill Golding. I know the Alford/Holfords were well liked by the traveller community. Mum and her parents lived at Occupation Rd and Dad and his parents (non Romany who were taken in by the travellers when grandfather Golding lost his home and job in 1930) lived in East Rd on the Marsh.