Old Suffolk Photo – Who are they?

[Rds]

Rds,

There is a tree on Ancestry for a William Cobbold b.1847 Bradfield St.George, Suffolk & who married a Sarah Elizabeth Gill in Bury St.Edmunds in 1882??.(should be 1871)

If I'm following their entries correctly, they had a son named Frederick Cobbold b.1880  but later killed during WW1 in Flanders, France 1915. (leaving a wife & 2 children)

This may help inputting names to the people in the 1st photo.

As an aside; in the 1881 census for Bradfield St.George, there is William Cobbold, his wife Sarah and 6 children including Frederick aged 3 months but also an Emma Gill a dau aged 14 yrs.

Could the above be of interest?

Alan

Thank you Alan, I think that maybe one of my trees on Ancestry, or one I have connected with.
Just posted the details, and all seem to match with what you have seen.

But without photos of these people, (I only have the parents, William and Sarah) I think it will be impossible to ID any of the children to see if they match the unknown people I posted.

[francoso]

The man in the photo is wearing the Meritorious Service Medal, MSM (top row, far left). Many of these medals were issued between 1916 and early 1920s as Immediate Awards (as opposed to Annuity  Awards of the MSM, which carried a pension. One of these Immediate awards was earned by Corporal/Acting Sergeant A.F. Cobbold in the second quarter of 1918. London Gazette 17 June 1918:
"His Majesty the King has been graciously pleased to approve of the award of the Meritorious Service Medal to the undermentioned Warrant Officers, Non-Commissioned Officers and Men, in recognition of the valuable services rendered with the Forces in France during the present war: ---
Then follows a list of 4,251 names including A.F. Cobbold. A.F. Cobbold was serving with the Bedfordshire Regiment. He is the only "Cobbold" to be awarded the Immediate MSM.

There is a memorial in Ipswich of soldiers from Suffolk who lost their lives during the Second Boer War 1899 -1902. Among them is: Private Harry COBBOLD, 1st Suffolk Regiment. Disease, 7.3.1902.

In addition, further Suffolk soldiers who died in the same war in South Africa are listed on the War Memorial in Bury St Edmunds, including Private C. Cobbold, 2nd King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, died of disease 6 Feb 1900.

If I find any further info I'll post it.

francoso

[Rds]

Thanks Francoso!

I have conflicting information on the medal now.

One was he is wearing, top row L to R,
India General Service medal 1895, Queen's Sudan Medal. Queens South Africa medal and Kings South Africa medal.

Bottom row L to R,
1914 or 1914/15 Star, War medal, Victory medal and the Cape of Good Hope service Medal.
Or maybe the General service medal 1918 but it was thought more to be the Cape of Good Hope service Medal in the end.

But you are saying top row, far left is Meritorious Service Medal, not the India general service medal 1895. I have looked at both and they have a very similar type of hanger. But I think the ribbon here matches the MSM more.

If the Corporal/Acting Sergeant A.F. Cobbold who earned one of these MSM is
the same as I have:

Alfred Cobbold (Middle name not yet known.)
B:7 Apr 1878 Bradfield St George, Suffolk, England
D:6 Feb 1937 Ellesmere, Shropshire, England

He died as a Sergeant Major.

If they are the same man then I am more and more starting to think this photo is Alfred Cobbold and a sister, or a brothers widow due to her wearing medals too, medals that would be too old for any of her sons to have earned. So must come from a husband - which could either be one of Alfred's brothers that fell in WW1 or the brother that died in the Boer War due to her holding the Boer War Christmas Gift Tin, or even this is Alfred sister (as it was said the people in the photo look similar).

I don't think it can his Wife as where would the medals come from?
As I said they are too old to be their sons, and he is wearing his own so she must be a widow or a sister wearing one of her fallen brothers medals.

The brothers widows would have been;

(Frederic "Freddy" Cobbold) - Rosina Cocksedge
B:11 Jul 1884 Rougham, Suffolk, England
D:Dec 1926 Bury St edmunds, Suffolk, England

(William Cobbold) - Alberta Phyllis Willingham
B:31 Jul 1879 Rougham, Suffolk, England
D:Dec 1979 Hendon, Middlesex, England

Arthur and Charles Cobbold doesn't seem to have married.

The brothers full details have already been posted.

Alfred's sister were;

Elizabeth Cobbold (married "Mr Humphreys" no other details)
B:Oct 1873 Bradfield St George, Suffolk, England
D:24 Sep 1937 England

Emma Gill (married Charles Winter B:abt 1861)
B:abt 1867 Rougham, Suffolk, England
D:sep 1932 Chesterfield, Derbyshire, England

Annie Cobbold (married Samuel John Norman B:October 1883)
B:19 Feb 1884 Bradfield St George, Suffolk, England
D:1 Mar 1969 Greenwich, Greater London, England

Lillie Cobbold (married George Alfred Newman B:4 Mar 1873 D:Jul 1950)
B:8 July 1886 Bradfield St George, Suffolk, England
D:15 Dec 1964 The General Hospital, Barnet, Hertfordshire, England


The second photo I posted would be Alfred's parents

William Cobbold
B:abt 1847 Bradfield St George, Suffolk, England
D:Jun 1922 Bury St edmunds, Suffolk, England

Sarah Elizabeth Cobbold (nee Gill)
B:July 1844 Rougham, Suffolk, England
D:Sep 1924 Bury St edmunds, Suffolk, England.

Private C. Cobbold, 2nd King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry on the Bury St Edmunds Memorial is Sergeant Major Alfred Cobbold brother, Charles.

Charles Cobbold
B:22 Nov 1871 Hessett, Suffolk, England
D:6 Feb 1900 Modder River, South Africa

Charles doesn't seem to marry, and he is the only brother the falls in the Boer War, and as the lady has the tin from the Boer war, the widow route doesn't work... so back to her being a sister...


I will see if i can find any more pictures of Alfred and his sister and see if it matches the photo first posted.

Thanks all

[francoso]

Hi Rds. The medal top row far left is definitely the MSM with Field Marshall's Bust of GV; The medal next to it is most likely the Queen's Sudan medal 1896 -1898, which has a ribbon half yellow half black with a thin red line down the middle (not really distinguishable in the photo). This medal was awarded at the same time as the medal bottom row fat right which is the Khedive's Sudan medal 1896-1898 and has a yellow ribbon and a broad blue stripe down the middle (the desert and the Nile running through it).

Thus, top row L to R is: Meritorious Service Medal (Immediate Award) GV Field Marshall's Bust; Queen's Sudan Medal 1896-1898, Queen's South Africa 11 Oct 1899-31 May 1902, King's South Africa 1901-1902 with two bars South Africa 1901 and South Africa 1902 (these were the only two bar awarded for the KSA medal)

Bottom row L to R: either the 1914 or 1914/15 Star (I think it would be the 1914 Star as your man was a full-time regular and would have been part of the standing arming when WW I broke out. The 1914 Star was awarded only to those who served in France or Belgium between 5 Aug 1914 and midnight on 22/23 Nov 1914. This is followed by the Victory Medal and then by the Khedive's Medal.

If this is indeed A.F. Cobbold's Medals, I will see what else I can find about him.

The medals being worn by the lady are from L to R: QSA with what looks like six bars (the bottom two appear to be issues rivetted together, The KSA with two bars South Africa 1901 and 1902, the 1914 or 1914/15 Star, and the Victory Medal. And of course she is holding Queen Victoria's Box.
Best
francoso

[francoso]

Hi again Rds. Further to above, the male in the photo wearing the medals is not A.F. Cobbold. Alfred Cobbold attested to the Rifle Brigade on 19 Oct 1899 but he served in India, Aden, Home, then WW I in Europe. Back to the drawing board.

francoso

[John915]

Good evening,

My apologies for mis identifying the MSM. A little research tells me that the ribbon was plain crimson until 1916, 1916 to 1917 it gained white edges. In 1917 it gained the centre stripe.

Further, as an immediate award it is worn AFTER the Victory medal, 26,000 were issued, 6 with bars for subsequent awards.

In 1917 however it was decided to give them for acts of gallantry out of the front line. 366 of these were issued with only one with a bar. This affects where it is worn, gallantry medals are worn before all campaign medals.

So we are looking for a man who was awarded the MSM for gallantry. I have looked but can't find a list of recipients for this.

John915

Added; https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/medals/meritorious-service-medal-army

[francoso]

Thanks John for reminding me re MSM for Gallantry: that was the trigger Their is a small booklet published in 1979 compiled by Major J.D. Sainsbury, titled "For Gallantry in the performance of Military Duty". in that book there is only ONE MSM awarded to the Suffolk Regiment, No 4450 RSM W.A. Read, 2nd Bn Suffolk Regiment. I found further information on the man's award from "The Meritorious Service Medal --- The Immediate Awards 1916-1928" viz "His Majesty the King has been graciously pleased to approve the award of the meritorious Service Medal to the undermentioned Warrant Officers, Non Commissioned Officers, and Men, in recognition of devotion to duty and valuable services rendered whilst Prisoner of War or interned, which services have been brought to notice in accordance with terms of Army Order 193 of 1919. To be dated 5 May 1919.

He was part of the Standing Army as he embarked on 15 Aug 1914, thus qualifying got the 1914 Star. He also qualified for the "Mons Clasp" No. 2/1107. He was taken Prisoner of War.

His Medal Index Card states: Read, William A., Suffolk Regiment, W.O. 2 and then CSM 4450. 1914 Star, Clasp and Rosette dispatched 16 Jul 1920, British war Medal and Victory Medal. Date of Entry to Theatre of War 15-8-1914.

Has anyone got the Roll for QSA and KSA --- I gave away many of my books many years ago.

[francoso]

RSM William Arthur Read, MSM, born 1882 3rd Qtr Samford Reg. District, died 29 Jan 1961 Ipswich Reg. District. Probate of William Arthur Read of 13 Goring Road, Ipswich, died at Ipswich and Suffolk Hospital, Administration (and Will) London 10 April 1961 to Beatrice Noel Hitchens, married woman. Effects pounds 797 5s 1d. Do the names ring any bells ?
francoso

[Rds]

Thank you both so much for the detailed information on all the medals! Amazing! Means a lot to me!

Sorry for the delayed response, YES! The name Read is on my tree, but not one I have looked into yet. And I need to explorer that branch more to understand the relation.

I will be back very shortly!!

Thanks again!