HUMPHRIES Elizabeth Sarah (or Sophia?) Brighton 1856/7/8?

[jonwarrn]

The Wallace school in Montpelier Road was a very posh ladies' school.
There is no problem tracing another pair who were there in 1851, E A and E M Rigden, age 13 and 11, both born Faversham, Kent.
They were Elizabeth Anne, and Emma Martha, baptized at Faversham, and their parents were William Rigden and his wife Catherine (nee Simpson)
William and Catherine were at home in Faversham in 1851, with their youngest daughter Augusta, 2.
Plus a visitor, a "lady"
Five house servants
And a coachman!

So it should not be too difficult to find G Humphrey, age 16, and E A Humphrey, age 14, born Southampton. Especially as G was not a common first initial for a female.

Instead of which, it seems to be impossible!
I think there might have been a mistake, could their name have meant to be Lamprey

Baptism of Georgina Mary Lamprey, 4 Nov 1834, Southampton
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QGQL-Z34Z

Baptism of Emily Augusta Lamprey, 24 May 1836, Southampton
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QGQL-Z3SJ

They are attached on there to a tree which doesn't have them in 1851.
In Eling, Hampshire, in 1841.

Emily Lamprey is in the later census, unmarried. Variously described as fund holder, annuitant, private means, etc.

[Annette7]

Thank you for the explanations.

Fact 1: Elizabeth Sophia Humphries daughter of John Terry Humphries married George Gray in 1872 as a single woman.  Her age was at odds with her known baptism date.

Fact 2: John Laing registered the birth of John Laing Humphries, son of Elizabeth Sarah Humphries in 1857.  No father named.

Fact 3: John Humphries son of Elizabeth Sarah Humphries was baptised in March 1858.  No father named.  Elizabeth definitely still alive at this point and presumably would have given her name to the officiating minister.  So unless he made a mistake, she was Elizabeth Sarah.

Fact 4: John Laing provided for John Laing Humphries, paid for his education (according to his will).

If John Laing made an earlier settlement on Elizabeth 'under the carpet' then why would he fairly openly acknowledge John Humphries' existence and pay for his education?

At the moment there is absolutely nothing to connect Elizabeth Sarah Humphries, mother of John Humphries b 1857, to Elizabeth Sophia Humphries who married in 1872.  I think they are probably two different people. 

Nell

I agree with this completely.   All we know for certain is that Elizabeth Sarah Humphries/Humphreys was in Brighton 1857/1858 where son John was born/baptised.   We don't know her age, where she was born, from these details.   

John Laing was living in St. Marylebone, London in 1851 and in Brighton 1861 and we've no idea when the move to Brighton took place.   Elizabeth may well have been a servant to John Laing in London and moved with the household to Brighton where she subsequently gave birth to John in 1857.   Once 'care' for John had been organised with the Potters she probably returned to London (as she doesn't appear to be in Brighton in 1861).

I have another 'candidate' for Elizabeth Sarah Humphries which I won't mention right now as don't want to muddy the waters at this point.   

The problem is the actual proof of any supposition we have.   My gut feeling is that she was a young servant girl who was at some point in the household of John Laing in London and moved with them to Brighton.   After John's birth and his future 'care' was arranged (no doubt by John Laing) she subsequently returned to London. 

That's my thoughts right now.

Annette

[Little Nell]

Interesting that when Ellen Elizabeth Potter was baptised in 1859, her parents were living in Grosvenor Street, the same street that Elizabeth Sarah Humphreys/Humphries gave as her address in 1858 when her son was baptised.

Might there be a connection between the Potter family and the Humphreys?

Nell

[TimCSS]

I have tried, without success I must admit, to find any connection between all or any of these people prior to the birth of John Laing Humphries in 1857 or subsequently.
Frances Naomi Potter (ms Toogood) came from the Isle of Wight. We have been there and researched the Toogood family and no connection has been found. Frances married a Potter from Bramber, we presume they met when both were working at a house in West Sussex as they gave that address when married at East Grinstead. (Actually the wedding was at Forest Row nearby, July 17th 1856.) The house still exists. The Potters later moved to Brighton and then Ringmer. We felt there must have been a connection between these families but none found. Grosvenor Street was not a very salubrious area, later demolished under the 'slum clearance' scheme.
John Laing lived at another address in Brighton, at Powis Villas for a short while as he is listed in a local directory there before 61 Montpelier Road. I have a list of all servants in the Laing household, both London and Brighton. No luck there either.
I think I did trace the family of the other Humphrey girl at the Wallace school. In my copious notes somewhere, that's how I know they were not related. The Wallace school was at another address in Brighton before Montpelier Road. The Montpelier Road address, 'Belvedere' was built by a well-known Brighton clergyman for his sister Mary Ann Wagner to live in with their mother but they didn't ever live there so it was leased off to the Wallaces. Later becoming The Park Royal Hotel and demolished in the 1960s. Now a block of flats on the site. (See 'The Wagners of Brighton' 1983)

I would have thought that John Laing was too 'up-market' to have an affair with a servant girl. His family were farmers originally from Newton just South-East of Edinburgh although he was born in Kingston Jamaica in 1898 where his father had a coffee plantation. Father became ill so they returned to England where his father David Laing (sen) died in London. His younger brother, born after the father's death, was Reverend David Laing who was 'highly thought of' by the Bishop of London. Any descendants of that Laing family appear to have died out. Lots in Newton Kirkyard!

This does seem to be one of those never ending circles doesn't it!

[TimCSS]

jonw65; Just re-read your earlier posting, The reference to Eling in Hampshire is of some sort-of interest as Elizabeth SOPHIA Humphries' later husband's family came from there. He was George GRAY born Eling Hants. See 1881 Census on findmypast.

[Annette7]

I get the feeling that whatever we say you are still going to go back to Elizabeth Sophia Humphries - fact being she was Elizabeth Sarah Humphries when son John born and Elizabeth Sarah when she had him baptised (she would have given this latter information herself).

I appreciate you have done a huge amount of research over the years but it seems to be you are trying to make pieces fit when they don't as Little Nell said earlier.

As to John Laing being too 'up-market' to have an affair with a servant girl.   I'm sorry but this kind of thing happened all too frequently and usually the man would take no responsibility whatsoever and the woman would be turned off and returned from whence she came.   I see that John Laing had just one surviving daughter born 1828 St Marylebone - to suddenly finding himself father of a son must have come as a shock.   However, he decides to make provision for the child although I wonder if he would have if it had been a girl.   We'll never know.  The kind of circle he'd have moved in would involve well-bred ladies or female servants.  Unfortunately, illegitimate children usually involved the latter.

You say you have a list of all servants of John Laing both in London and Brighton - how did you obtain this?  We can see his servants in 1851 and 1861 from the census but not who came and went in between.

Whatever the truth actually is I think you need to completely rule out Elizabeth Sophia Humphries as John's mother.

Annette

   

[TimCSS]

John Laing's daughter from his first wife married Admiral Sir Joseph Nias, so that was up-market!

[TimCSS]

It is a shame that so far none of the very welcome responses on this site have advanced our search for my wife's Gt gt grandmother whether she be Elizabeth Sarah or Elizabeth Sophia. Unfortunately,... where anything is written down both spellings of the Humphries / Humphreys name were used in the 1850s. I suppose that spelling was less important then and phonetic spelling was used. On John Laing HUMPHRIES' birth certificate his name, as registered by the presumed father (John Laing) is spelt Humphries. On his baptism 28th March 1858, numbered in register 1224, nearly a year after his birth, it was spelt Humphreys when recorded presumably by his mother who is down as Elizabeth Sarah and address given only as Grosvenor Street, Brighton, and no number is recorded nor is her occupation. Unfortunately no records of the occupants of Grosvenor Street survive as these were only tenement houses and directories of the period did not bother to list the occupants.
I also, having spent an hour or so re-reading my copious notes last night am inclined to dismiss Elizabeth Sophia as we do know where she went to later but so far no death has been found for her so maybe she married again after George Gray died. If I have followed the right person she seems to have flitted about a bit, but we do know that she did actually exist.
So, returning to Elizabeth Sarah; We have not found any confirmed birth, marriage, or death so far under either spelling. Thanks to all who have responded so far. We are still waiting for that little breakthrough which might lead us to the right person. The main problem is that if she did not marry subsequently and have other children, no-one else is going to be looking for her!

[Annette7]

I'll mention now my candidate for Elizabeth Sarah Humphries.

Elizabeth Sarah Humphries born 29/5/1840, bp.2/10/1842 Hammersmith, dau. of James (cabinet maker) and Elizabeth.  (So would only have been 17 when John Laing Humphries born).

In 1841 in Shoreditch with James now shown as Box Maker.

In 1851 family have moved to Newington where James now a Greengrocer.   

In 1861 family still in Newington but dau. Elizabeth not with them.   Possible entry for her as servant in Bethnal Green.

Elizabeth Sarah Humphries, dau. of James, fruiterer, married Thomas Humphries (yes, same surname), Chemist, son of John Humphries, tea dealer)  on 26/7/1864 St. Saviour, Southwark.

In 1861 Thomas Humphries is in Marylebone (bc.1832 Southwark) as Chemist Assistant.

After marriage - zilch for either of them.   Can only assume they emigrated somewhere soon after the marriage as no deaths, no sightings on census.  They just disappear from UK records.

Annette