Samuel Collins

[Neale1961]

This is the family of Samuel COHEN per “Mangles” 1835.
NOTE: He had brother Joseph who came to Australia. Working with descendants of this sibling Joseph COHEN – DNA might give you a clear answer.
There are quite a lot of public trees on Ancestry for this family. None of them seem to know about Samuel – probably because he was gone before the 1841 census.

Moses COHEN born 1777 Whitechapel, died 25 Nov 1862 aged 85 (occupation – “dealer”)
married Elizabeth PHILIPS (abt 1779 – 1852)  in 1799 Great Synagogue, London.
Residence in 1841 and 1851 census (also at time of Samuel’s criminal sentence 1835) was Butlers Buildings, St Botolph, Aldgate, London.
1861 residence Swan St. St Botolph.
Children:
•   Esther COHEN b. abt 1805
•   Elizabeth COHEN b. abt 1806
•   Julia COHEN b abt. 1810
•   Frances COHEN b abt 1812
•   Samuel COHEN b. abt 1816 – convict sent to VDL and then moved to Sydney
•   James Simon COHEN b. abt 1819
•   *Joseph COHEN b abt 1823  - emigrated to Melbourne
•   Rebecca COHEN b. abt 1827

*Sibling Joseph COHEN was a general dealer, like his father Moses. Joseph emigrated to Australia in 1853 with his wife Rachel who died the same year. He married Phoebe SIMMONS in 1863 Victoria, and he died in Melbourne in 1904. In 1850 Joseph was in Newgate prison London, charged with receiving stolen goods – found not guilty.

[BIMINI]

I am amazed at the amount of information you are providing- thank you very much.
The assumption that the 2 Samuels' are the same has merit and your thoughts on the reason for the name change very valid.
With a purpose to either "divorce" his family or to possibly hide the convict past also has merit and it reminds me that years ago, when I first got hooked on family research, I was told by my grandfather (Samuel's grandson) that Samuel had married a Mary Montgomery at Windsor. It was only when I started obtaining all of the birth registrations for the children of this union, that I found out that her maiden name was McCrumb and later, that she had married a Charles Chuck (another convict) who died in 1854 and not too make it sound too far fetched, Charles came to Australia on the "Mangles" although in 1837!
When I questioned a late aunt about the name Montgomery, I was advised that it was to hide the convict shame of both parents being Irish convicts. The irony of this also is that her mother, Sally, left her father and took up with yet another convict, John Montgomery!
This is looking more promising as it goes- I have done a search of my DNA records but cannot immediately identify any Cohens although I did make contact some time ago with a DNA 2-3rd cousin who also had Jewish ancestry but he has not proven very reliable in keeping up the communication.

[Neale1961]

Just adding Links to convict records:
Samuel Cohen Conduct record page 1
https://stors.tas.gov.au/CON31-1-7 image 311
conduct record page 2
https://stors.tas.gov.au/CON32-1-2 image 193
Samuel Cohen description
https://stors.tas.gov.au/CON18-1-16  image 17
Samuel Cohen convict Indent page 1
https://stors.tas.gov.au/CON14-1-4  image 8
Indent page 2
https://stors.tas.gov.au/CON14-1-4 image 9


There are various items in the Tasmanian papers relating to his ticket of leave and conditional pardons.
PLUS
Samuel Cohen Tasmania papers 1844
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8754855?searchTerm=%22samuel%20Cohen%22

[BIMINI]

Hi Neale1961
Just received a CD  " The Convict Ships 1788-1868"I ordered after being advised by the NAA that it is the "definitive guide" for convict transportation research.
I had hoped it would be a little bit more informative on the convicts but I suppose it really does give a good coverage of the ships.
I have also searched on Ancestry and found a private Tree with Joseph Cohen on it- I will write to the owner and see if I can shed more light on Samuel and/or his family.
Thanks for the additional convict records.

[Neale1961]

I have also searched on Ancestry and found a private Tree with Joseph Cohen on it- I will write to the owner and see if I can shed more light on Samuel and/or his family.

I would ask them if they have done a DNS test, and see if you have any links there.
I don't think they will not know anything about Samuel, as he was gone from London before the census records.

[BIMINI]

Thanks Neale1961
You are right but it may open up other avenues.
I meant to tell you that a long time ago, when I was advised about my possible Jewish roots, I wrote to a Rabbi to see if he could fill me on about Samuel Collins or if he knew of a Samuel Collins.
He advised me that he had not record of a Jewish convict of this name and the topic dropped.
I think it was a Rabbi named John Levi so I am trying to go through all of the plethora of paper/old computer records to see if I can get in contact with him again.
I will let you know how I het on with the owner of the family tree.
Thanks again, your assistance is greatly appreciated.

[BIMINI]

Hi again Neale1961 et al
Well a number of my hunches /sources have not born fruit in determining who my Samuel Collins was.
The owner of the family tree did respond and tell me that she was only doing the tree for a relative and t just came along with no knowledge of this part.
Two occasions to have the assistance of the NSW State Archives has also proven useless. Even when they have been given the 4 exact times, prisoner number and gaol, they are either unable, or more likely, unwilling to give me the simple description of the tattoos which adorned the Samuel Collins entering these establishments. They originally told me that I could get these answers on Ancestry, and when I told them I was on Ancestry they told me that I can only get it by accessing the information in the "reading room" - this is no assistance as I cannot afford to fly to Sydney and make my way out to them or, another suggestion, hire a researcher to do it- again out of the question.
They have also pushed to have a Samuel Collins, whose photo is available, to be the one I am researching even though this one was born in 1848 and would have fathered his first child aged 9 years!!
I am afraid I may have to just give in unless there are any other suggestions to get these "publlc servants" to do their job.

[Neale1961]

It is probable that there are no physical descriptions for him. He wasn’t a hardened criminal after all, just a disorderly nuisance. If physical descriptions were made, these usually can be found in the police gazettes, but there was nothing for you man.
I was aware of the file with photos for the Collins  born 1848 that you mentioned. Of course I had already looked at it and know it is a different person.
I think the only way forward is through DNA, and you might have more luck linking with Cohen family descendants still in the UK. Again there are trees on Ancestry.
My hunch is that Samuel Cohen and Samuel Colllins are the same person, but of course you want some more concrete proof.
Don’t give up.

[BIMINI]

Hi Nesle1961

Without saying there are no records of him, there is an inference that there is with various references to a number of files only held by them and a tendency to tout for a researcher to be engaged to access these files.
With this mind, I remain at a loss as to why they cannot say that there are no descriptions of Samuel Collins despite the fact that the number of incarcerations he had , would have warranted a shield to have been erected in his honor at the gaol.
I wont give up and I will seek alternate ways to access this information because just because I live in Queensland, the majority of my family live in NSW so I may have to enlist them.