Irish ancestors Ward and Ryan

[bbart]

.....
It's possible that English was synonymous with British in this context. Irish-born people were British citizens/subjects.

Thie is correct.  Quite a likely entry as they boarded in Plymouth in England to go to Australia

Normally I would think along the same lines, but all this ship list seemed to be concerned with was name, then a break down of ages and genders and whether English, Irish, Scottish, or Alien.  I will attach a snip so you can see what I mean.  There were tick marks all over the place, so I don't think they were just lazily marking everyone as English. (On the attached, you are mainly just seeing the tally marks at the top).  Steerage was much more balanced across the nationalities.

The OP said "I have a copy of what seems to be the immigration details for Annie 20, with John 26, Katherine 23 and Pat 18 on the Northumberland in May 1878".  I took that to mean that John, Katherine, and Pat are part of Annie's family.

My concern was more along the lines of this doesn't appear to be a family of Ryans' traveling together. John and Katherine boarded over in Gravesend, and were cabin passengers.  Annie and Pat were not together on the list (but close!), boarded in in Plymouth, and were in steerage. 

I did take a quick peek at the year prior, and there are an absolute boatload (pun intended!) of Irish Annie Ryan's headed to Australia.  It's a shame these old lists didn't ask for more information; one would think they would want at least next of kin.

[shanreagh]

My Irish ancestors immigrated to Australia.   I have the following details (which may be slightly incorrect).
Michael Ward.  Born Ballinasloe, Roscommon about 1857. Parents Michael Ward and Bridget Doolan (or Dolan).   He went to Australia before 1882, as this was the date of his marriage in Melbourne.

Anne Ryan.  Born Athlone, Roscommon about 1857.   Parents John Ryan and Ellen Connor (or Connelly).

I have a copy of what seems to be the immigration details for Annie 20, with John 26, Katherine 23 and Pat 18 on the Northumberland in May 1878.   However I cannot find confirmation of these details when searching the ship's records.

Perhaps there are some family members who have the correct details for Michael and Anne and their parents.   From a letter written to my mother from her cousin, there was a relative of Anne's living in Moore, Roscommon.

Please advise the details of the fathers given on the marriage certificate of Anne Ryan and Michael Ward.  Are they shown as deceased in 1882? Please advise the date of death and age at death shown on the death certificates for Anne Ryan and Michael Ward.
Also the names in birth order of their children (these can give clues as to the names of family members.)

Where did they marry & die? Any clues as to where in Aus they emigrated to?   

[wivenhoe]

BDM VIC marriage
3788/1882 WARD Michael   marr. RYAN, Anne

births
17388/1883 WARD Bridget                parents  Anne RYAN / Michael  @  Hoth
25261/1884 WARD Mary Ellen Margt  parents Anne RYAN / Michael  @  Hoth
19167/1886 WARD Michael John        parents Anne RYAN / Michael  @ Hoth
12426/1888 WARD Ann                     parents Anne RYAN / Michael   @ Hoth W
12427/1888 WARD Catherine            parents Annie RYAN / Michael   @ Hoth W
14093/1890 WARD Mary                   parents Anne RYAN /  Mich       @ Hotham West
5043  /1892 WARD Ellen                    parents Anne RYAN /  Michl       @ Hotham West 
32552/1893 WARD Margaret Theresa  parents Anne RYAN / Michael  @ Hoth
30138/1895 WARD Thos Jos               parents Anne RYAN / Michl      @ Hotham East

death
1880/1886 WARD Mary Ellen Marg't  parents Ann RYAN / Mich'l  age 1     @  W Hoth
6704/1896 WARD Mich    age 39      parents Bridt  DOLAN /  WAR Mich    @  Melb

North Melbourne Courier and West Melbourne Advertiser  10 Apr 1896 p2
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/103237890?
A DESERVING CASE - On Good Friday, a Mr. Michael WARD, of Leveson street, North Melbourne, died after a short but painful illness, leaving a wife and eight children unprovided for and
destitute. Subscriptions are being collected by the North Melbourne police, who have also given sums themselves....

death
14364/1921  WARD Anne  parents Ellen CONNELLY / RYAN John  age 65    @ Hotham East

The Herald 20 Dec 1921 p24
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242634101?
WARD.— On tho 20th December, at her residence, No. 124 Queensberry street, North Melbourne, Anne, widow of the late Michael WARD and loving mother of -
late Mrs W . BLEAZBY,
the late Mollie,
Michael J.,
Catherine,
Mrs CONNELLEY,
Mary,
Ellen,
Mrs ' WOOD
Thomas;              age 63

https://prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/wills-and-probates

180/996 Will dated 27 November 1921.
Anne WARD, widowed 1896, with eight children and in desperate circumstances, dies 1921 owning a block of land, and 345 pounds.

Using PROV children in Care, I am not seeing the WARD children placed into institution state care. There were other forms of institutional care.

How does Anne WARD support her children?

This family would seem to stay in inner city Melbourne. Using Trove, I can see WARD and DORAN in close proximity.

What is the source of the information you are giving to the forum?

[Whosthatchick]

Hi everyone,
Just a bit of background. My husband and I decided to do a little winter time ancestry research into our families great grandparents roots.   Hence my questions about the Wards.

I know a lot about Michael and Anne (Annie) when they came to Australia, their family and where they lived, etc. but was wondering about their Irish history.   

I have been busy the past couple of weeks with family things, but I did find a letter from my mother's box cousin, who said that a lot of Irish records had been lost in a fire.   So that may explain why we are unable to find out for sure the names of parents.

When I said I was unsure of some facts, this was the generation I was talking of (e.g. Michael's mother is either Doolan or Dolan and Anne's mother either Connor or Connelly).   The father's names are listed on their marriage certificate but not the mothers.

Anne opened a shop in Melbourne and cared for her family there - they were never taken into care.   By all accounts she was a generous, loving and well-respected parent and member of the community.

In all our searching, we have found that some countries have detailed records that stretch back a long time, but others are more difficult to trace and we accept that we may never be able to fill in all details, with sometimes just a name being all we can do.

I have received some information from my cousins in Australia as well.   Anne definitely had a brother Patrick (Pat) who came to Australia.   He never married and we have his death details.   One sheet of paper I have lists Anne's parents as John Ryan and Ellen Connelly and their children as Anne 1856, Patrick 1859, Michael 1860 and John, no DOB.   Anne and Patrick are recorded as being born in Athlone, County Roscommon, Ireland, but no record of the other two.   Knowing how ancestry facts can get mixed up I have to say that the last two children may not be correct.

Thank you again for all your research and taking time to send the information you have.

[Dundee]

The father's names are listed on their marriage certificate but not the mothers.

Both sets of parents are recorded and the copy from the Registry would be the same.  Here is the original:

https://postimg.cc/VrkVzZBL

......but I did find a letter from my mother's box cousin, who said that a lot of Irish records had been lost in a fire.   So that may explain why we are unable to find out for sure the names of parents.

That is not true.  The Catholic Registers were not lost in 1922 and your family appear to have been Catholic.  The genealogy tool kit has a lot of guidance for Irish research:

https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/irish-records-burned.html

Debra 

[Whosthatchick]

Thank you so much for that information.  I will do some more Irish searching and see if I can get a birth and/or death date for Michael's and Anne's parents, but at least we know who they were. Wouldn't a trip to Ireland be great!  My husband has Irish roots as well.

[Maiden Stone]

Both sets of parents are recorded and the copy from the Registry would be the same.  Here is the original:

https://postimg.cc/VrkVzZBL

......but I did find a letter from my mother's box cousin, who said that a lot of Irish records had been lost in a fire.   So that may explain why we are unable to find out for sure the names of parents.

Mother's surname looks more like Connor or Connors than Connelly. You could ask handwriting deciphering board for an opinion.
As the information was supplied by the bride, I'd go with it until/unless there's other contrary evidence.

Civil registrations of births and of marriages in Catholic churches began in 1864 in Ireland (non-Catholic marriages from 1845). You need to look for baptism registers and church marriage registers for births and weddings pre-1864.