Help with Brick Wall with DNA testing with assumed Endogamy

[DeLeonardis.Swinbank]

I am new to the site, but have been doing genealogy research for years.

My maternal grandmother never knew who her father was. I hoped, though she passed away and had no siblings, my mother's DNA (& my own) would be enough to break the brick walls.

Maternal Grandmother: May Hardy
B: 8 July 1930 in Bishop Auckland, County Durham, UK (probably Witton Park)
M: 19 March 1955 to Raymond Swinbank (1929-1990)
D: 22 March 2009 in Bishop Auckland

May Hardy's Mother (Timeline): Harriet Hardy
Birth: 11 September 1912 in Firtree, County Durham
Conception: Approx Oct 1929 (September-December)
May's Birth: July 1930
Marriage: 1931 to Daniel Aldworth (1910-1980)
Child #2: Daniel Aldworth (1932-2015)
Death: 1952 in West Auckland, County Durham from a brain aneurysm

It is very unlikely that Harriet Hardy's husband, Daniel Aldworth, was May's father. (I'd honestly bet my money on impossible, but will stick with not probable) May was raised by her grandparents John Thomas Hardy (1891-1957) and Emily Thornton (1891-1956) with her aunts and uncles in Witton Park. When Harriet left with her husband, May stayed, but she did know her mother was Harriet. [Daniel Aldworth, May's half sibling, passed away in 2015 and never had children]

DNA Tests have been taken through 23andMe and Ancestry, both our DNA is uploaded to GED match, MyHeritage & ftDNA. Based on my sleuthing and research of DNA matches it seems my mother matches a few people 2x higher than she should (as do I). With weeding out the DNA matches it seems to be through May Hardy's Grandfather John Thomas Hardy's (1891-1957) side of the tree.

I manage the DNA for my parents and paternal grandparents, but my mother truly has the least amount of close matches, besides me, it starts with "extended family".
I'll share a few examples from my mother's shared DNA with matches

Ancestry DNA(Unknown Relations):
MG 145 cM 2% (unknown relation - responded once, is adopted, knows nothing, doesn't answer now)
LR 118 cM 2% (unknown relation - shared match to MG, has messaging disabled, no information to search them or contact or tree)
RB 112 cM 2% (unknown relation - shared match to MG & LR, has messaging disabled, no information to search them or contact or tree)

MyHeritage DNA(MRCA= John Thomas Hardy & Emily Thornton):
MH 853.8cM 12% (Known 1C1R)  | 445.3 cM to Me
VH 842.5cM 11.9% (Known 1C1R) | 491.8 cM to Me
AW (son of MH) 428.3 cM  (known 2C)  | 250.4 cM to Me
AR (niece of MH) 426.1 cM (known 2C)  | 162.1 cM to Me


23andMe DNA:
JS 208 cM 2.79% (research confirms as 2C1R: MRCA= John Thomas Hardy & Emily Thornton)
PE  335 cM 4.49% (research confirms as 3C: MRCA=George Hardy & Susannah "Hannah" Howe*, parents of John Thomas Hardy )
GF 147cM 1.96% (research confirms as 3C: MRCA=William Thornton & Harriet Henfrey, parents of Emily Thornton)


I'm sorry I don't know all the ways to edit this as I don't use forums ever and it isn't "short & sweet", but I'm hoping that the length will have those uninterested or unable to help just skip it faster and not waste their time asking things I could have left out.

I'm not sure if I am allowed to share or not but, if I am, I do have a facebook page for my genealogy research (I don't update much) but do see messages faster. I'll wait before I link it as I do not want to break a rule.


THANK YOU!

Michelle DeLeonardis
daughter of Lynn Swinbank
daughter of May Hardy
daughter of Harriet Hardy
daughter of John Thomas Hardy & Emily Thornton

[Biggles50]

As you have found DNA can throw up as many more questions than what they answer.

You say known to the 1C1R relationship and yet the level of shared DNA does not equate as it a 97% probability that the relationship is a 1C.  So yes I would tentatively agree that endogamy may play a part in the results and hence your tree needs to be as wide and as accurate as it can be for the last six or seven generations.

With your DNA results on the My Heritage website you could look in the Tools and use the chromosome browser to see the detail of the matches.

Uploading your DNA to Gedmatch may also yield more results and by subscribing on a month at a time basis to their tier one tools and by watching the tutorials on the site you can gain a better understanding of using DNA to its max.  Watching the Gedmatch tutorials will help in using the My Heritage tools.

There is no magic wand, its a hard slog that will get results.

[Rossdal3]

Hi there,
I’m interested to know what progress you might have made on this.
I have the same problem with a ‘brick wall’ on my maiden name line.
The family lived in West Yorkshire and is traceable back 500 years on most lines.
Endogamy abounds plus pedigree collapse with 6/8 Gt Grandparent lines sharing the same DNA from the mid 1500s back. The highest DNA match we have that appears to be in this line is 70 cM, with a good well research family tree. We both match with a group of 93 other DNA matches who all triangulate on the same chromosome.

Would love to hear any methodology that is helping you to solve the mystery.
Our DNA has been shared on most DNA sites.
Kind regards,
Jill

[Biggles50]

Sadly Jill the Op did not have the manners to return and to update us on what happened.

Can you pm me your Gedmatch number, you have a name in your list that I have in my tree.

[Rossdal3]

PM sent.
I’m really a novice with GEDmatch I’m afraid.

[DeLeonardis.Swinbank]

Update: First, I appreciate the input from those who kindly commented and a woman who even messaged me on Ancestry. That said, I don't appreciate assuming I am mannerless due to not updating. I am chronically ill and posted this over a year ago in hopes of finding information, but also don't use this website often or even had before. I lost track of it honestly and forgot I even posted.

I won't bore you with my personal struggles, but I will say, you shouldn't assume someone isn't having manners or being kind because their own life became busy, they could be sick or not tech savvy or trying their best.


As far as this original post goes, I have not figured out how the DNA matches on Ancestry relate, MG 145cM, LR 118cM or RB 112cM. First, I believe they are from my mother's paternal side which is not the side I suspect the Endogamy, but when I originally shared this I was not sure which side they were from. Some of them have their full name listed on Ancestry, but some of their names are not their birth names due to Adoptions and 1 doesn't have a name, tree or messaging enabled. Feel free to disregard these DNA matches in the context of my post as at this time I do not suspect it is of importance.

Since the post I have narrowed down the possible line/relation of the endogamous relationship but have not been able to confirm a specific person.

The DNA match on 23andMe I mentioned with the initials PE who matches my mother at 335cM but is a known 3rd cousin based on my research has been confirmed through speaking with him and his mother that my research is correct. His mother also tested and she matches my mother at 512 cM and she is my mother's 2C1R.


Another DNA match popped up since this post on Ancestry to my delight. His initials are PS and he matches my mother at 261 cM. Through research and chatting I have found out he is also a 3rd cousin to my mother.

PE (3C - 335 cM 23andMe) & PS 261 cM (3C - 261 cM Ancestry) are 2nd Cousins, but they do not know eachother/about eachother.

PE's mother and PS's mothers are 1st Cousins. Their MRCAs are Thomas Chalinder(1876-1931) and Mary Isabel Hardy (1884-1957). At this time I have not found any more descendants of these two in my DNA matches on any site I am on which Ancestry, 23andMe, MyHeritage, GEDmatch, ftDNA & LivingDNA.

I have also not found a single DNA match to relate myself or my mother to Thomas Chalinder or his family. At this time I unfortunately am going to be waiting for more DNA matches to pop up and just continue tracing all of them like I always do.

Unfortunately, it seems as though it must be a strictly paternal relationship with no straying off the line which may mean it is not a cousin like I had somewhat suspected and may be a closer relationship. I don't even want to type the possibilities in here until I can confirm it as I am very emotionally attached when I do my research and do not want to speak ill of the dead without stronger evidence.


Again, I thank you for those who reached out and I do apologize for not updating as that was not my intention. I am doing the best I can with the cards I was dealt in life.

[brigidmac]

What an
Interesting conundrum

The matches do seem high for the relationship  . Going back further in the trees are there examples of cousins marrying  or twins whose descendants would have higher cm

I researched someone whose grandfather's sister married his grandmothers brother
So his second cousins were double cousins
I don't know if that counts as endogamy but their expected cm amounts were higher than most regular 2C

  *Deleted  sentence because not relevant because those matches are from your mother's paternal side *

Good luck ...Del thanks for the update

 look forward to update from Rossdal too tho  it can take time for more matching
DNA results to come in

A tip for you both if you use ancestry. Always look at shared matches of shared matches I find it particularly useful if they are adoptees
Can sometimes predict which is a shared great grandparents surname + location

[Spelk]

Hi Michelle,
The three unknown matches would seem to be your best hope to resolve the problem. Anyone whose relationship you can trace by paper is no help.
The three unknowns - did their profiles give any indication of whether they lived close to each other or Auckland?
As said - Shared Matches with these three can help. Rather like the Clustering done by MyHeritage but you can do it manually. Find Shared Matches common to your three unknowns. Even if they are more distant you may find just the one you need who has a decent tree and/or is willing to engage with you. Could take many hours over weeks or months.
I was lucky with the father of my illegitimate gran. Her mother lived in North Yorkshire but married a lad from Suffolk two years after gran was born. After four months of checking DNA matches on Ancestry I found a woman in Canada whose only English ancestor in her tree was a man called by the same surname and from the same village as my grans Stepfather. Two hours later I had worked out that the Canadian woman’s ancestor was first cousin of the Stepfathers father. So the woman in Canada is my fifth cousin and by today’s standards gran is no longer illegitimate.
Edit. The Canadian woman might be a fourth cousin once removed. Can’t recall how many generations on her side.

[Rossdal3]

Hi there,
I completely understand how life gets in the way.
Since I posted I have done a lot more work on my family tree only to realise the full extent of endogamy and pedigree collapse on my DNA results. 
It’s extensive, with 6 out of 8 Great Grandparent sharing the exact same families back from the 16th century. I have multiple DNA matches between 30-20 cM, who share MRCA on these lines who are 8th+ cousins.

The line I’m searching for had very small families and ‘girled’ out.  The living relatives that could prove useful refuse to test, so I don’t think I have any hope of finding out much more about my maiden name.
Good luck with your search.

Regards, Jill