John Murray

[ruthhelen]

The Certified Copy of their Entry of Marriage on 12 August 1944;  Registration District FYLDE in the County of Lancaster.   Column 2:  John Murray Seaman (Merchant Service) , Annie Melville Campbell Housekeeper.  Column 7 (Father's Name and Surname) was blank.  Column 8  (Rank or Profession of Father) was also blank.  Signed by Registrar of Marriages Robert J. Waring.

I think info and columns are being confused unfortunately.

Column 2 is the name of the groom/ bride
Column 7 & 8 is the name of the father of groom/ bride and then his occupation.

Mother's name was not included on marriage registrations.

See an example here www.family-tree.co.uk/getting-started/getting-started/what-information-can-be-found-on-a-marriage-certificate/

Monica

I think this has actually conflated John Murray's (b. 1925) birth registration with Robert Murray Campbell's (b. 1921) marriage. The 'column 2' information, I think, comes from the birth, while the rest is the marriage. Murielle has a copy of Robert Murray Campbell's marriage record on her Ancestry tree, which clearly shows that the name of the father is blank (English records being not interested in who the mother was...).

Ruth

[muriellecampbell]

Can someone on Rootschat for Scotland confirm if indeed John Murray is the biological father of my father-in-law Robert Murray Campbell.   

It's highly unlikely unfortunately, anyone could confirm the above unless via DNA matches with your husband.

Has your husband done a DNA test & have the relations of John Murray Jnr. done DNA?
The results of matching will help to determine whether John Murray Snr. was the father of Robert Murray Campbell.

Yes, my husband and I have done a DNA test back in 2017.

The Certified Copy of their Entry of Marriage on 12 August 1944;  Registration District FYLDE in the County of Lancaster.   Column 2:  John Murray Seaman (Merchant Service) , Annie Melville Campbell Housekeeper.  Column 7 (Father's Name and Surname) was blank.  Column 8  (Rank or Profession of Father) was also blank.  Signed by Registrar of Marriages Robert J. Waring.

The marriage on August 12, 1944 was for my father-in-law Robert Murray Campbell and his wife Catherine (Irene) Lonsdale.   His father was definitely John Murray (hence the Murray middle name on Robert's Certificate of Birth.  We are totally sure that his mother Annie Melville Campbell. We don't know of any marriage between John Murray Snr. and Annie Melville Campbell.   So Robert Murray Campbell was illegitimate.  Robert told us that he was illegitimate.
   If Robert had a different father, he would have had to be a Murray as well.. 

There appears to be too much speculation on who the parents of John Murray Snr. were, considering he left the columns blank regarding his father.
Might this indicate he was also illegitimate?

Annie 

I know for sure that Robert Murray Campbell was illegitimate when he was born in 1921.  As for John Murray Snr.  I do not know that information.  No one in the family relatives provided any information as well.  So it has made it extra difficult in coming to a conclusion for me.  I am so glad that you are here to help.   

I do have another possibility.  According to a family member on the Wilson (John William Buchan Wilson who married Annie Melville Campbell on Oct 31, 1931) lineage, this lady mentioned a John Robert Murray (they called Poppa Jack) b) 1889 Lerwick, Shetland, Scotland.  He died in Davenport, North Shore, Auckland, New Zealand on 7 Oct 1958, and was buried in Waitakere, same place as Annie and John Murray Jr.  He married Hazel Alice Fergus b) 1892-1967 both dates in Auckland, New Zealand.   They married 24 1914.  Would he be the fellow that Annie Melville Campbell had the boys with in 1921 and in 1925?    This would be a load off my shoulders if indeed he was the right guy.  Can't wait to hear from you all.  Thank you so much in advance.

[muriellecampbell]

Can someone on Rootschat for Scotland confirm if indeed John Murray is the biological father of my father-in-law Robert Murray Campbell.   

It's highly unlikely unfortunately, anyone could confirm the above unless via DNA matches with your husband.

Has your husband done a DNA test & have the relations of John Murray Jnr. done DNA?
The results of matching will help to determine whether John Murray Snr. was the father of Robert Murray Campbell.

Yes, my husband and I have done a DNA test back in 2017.

  Both John Murray Snr. and John Murray Jr. had died and did not have a DNA test done. 

The Certified Copy of their Entry of Marriage on 12 August 1944;  Registration District FYLDE in the County of Lancaster.   Column 2:  John Murray Seaman (Merchant Service) , Annie Melville Campbell Housekeeper.  Column 7 (Father's Name and Surname) was blank.  Column 8  (Rank or Profession of Father) was also blank.  Signed by Registrar of Marriages Robert J. Waring.

The marriage on August 12, 1944 was for my father-in-law Robert Murray Campbell and his wife Catherine (Irene) Lonsdale.   His father was definitely John Murray (hence the Murray middle name on Robert's Certificate of Birth.  We are totally sure that his mother Annie Melville Campbell. We don't know of any marriage between John Murray Snr. and Annie Melville Campbell.   So Robert Murray Campbell was illegitimate.  Robert told us that he was illegitimate.
   If Robert had a different father, he would have had to be a Murray as well.. 

There appears to be too much speculation on who the parents of John Murray Snr. were, considering he left the columns blank regarding his father.
Might this indicate he was also illegitimate?

Annie 

I know for sure that Robert Murray Campbell was illegitimate when he was born in 1921.  As for John Murray Snr.  I do not know that information.  No one in the family relatives provided any information as well.  So it has made it extra difficult in coming to a conclusion for me.  I am so glad that you are here to help.   
...
I do have another possibility.  According to a family member on the Wilson (John William Buchan Wilson who married Annie Melville Campbell on Oct 31, 1931) lineage, this lady mentioned a John Robert Murray (they called Poppa Jack) b) 1889 Lerwick, Shetland, Scotland.  He died in Davenport, North Shore, Auckland, New Zealand on 7 Oct 1958, and was buried in Waitakere, same place as Annie and John Murray Jr.  He married Hazel Alice Fergus b) 1892-1967 both dates in Auckland, New Zealand.   They married 24 1914.  Would he be the fellow that Annie Melville Campbell had the boys with in 1921 and in 1925?    This would be a load off my shoulders if indeed he was the right guy.  Can't wait to hear from you all.  Thank you so much in advance.

[Rosinish]

Yes, my husband and I have done a DNA test back in 2017. Both John Murray Snr. and John Murray Jr. had died and did not have a DNA test done.

I was wondering if any descendants of Robert's brother John Jnr. had done a DNA test to compare the likelihood of both having the same father i.e. John Murray Snr?

Annie

[Rosinish]

My husband's father was born in Stirling, Stirlingshire, Scotland on Dec. 21, 1921.  His records are going to be available.  Since we live in Canada and the cost is quite a lot of money, I'm choosing to wait on this one.

The full fee is still very cheap compared with other countries.

However, the index suggests no father is named on his BC otherwise he'd have been registered under both surnames which it appears he isn't.

Annie

[muriellecampbell]

Yes, my husband and I have done a DNA test back in 2017. Both John Murray Snr. and John Murray Jr. had died and did not have a DNA test done.

I was wondering if any descendants of Robert's brother John Jnr. had done a DNA test to compare the likelihood of both having the same father i.e. John Murray Snr?

We do not have any contact with the son of John Jnr.   He lives in Australia.  He has a daughter but she has stage 3 or 4 Alzheimer's and we don't feel comfortable in asking for her to do a DNA test.  There are no other living relatives for John Murray Jnr. 



Annie

[muriellecampbell]

The Certified Copy of their Entry of Marriage on 12 August 1944;  Registration District FYLDE in the County of Lancaster.   Column 2:  John Murray Seaman (Merchant Service) , Annie Melville Campbell Housekeeper.  Column 7 (Father's Name and Surname) was blank.  Column 8  (Rank or Profession of Father) was also blank.  Signed by Registrar of Marriages Robert J. Waring.

I think info and columns are being confused unfortunately.

Column 2 is the name of the groom/ bride
Column 7 & 8 is the name of the father of groom/ bride and then his occupation.

Mother's name was not included on marriage registrations.

See an example here www.family-tree.co.uk/getting-started/getting-started/what-information-can-be-found-on-a-marriage-certificate/

Monica

I think this has actually conflated John Murray's (b. 1925) birth registration with Robert Murray Campbell's (b. 1921) marriage. The 'column 2' information, I think, comes from the birth, while the rest is the marriage. Murielle has a copy of Robert Murray Campbell's marriage record on her Ancestry tree, which clearly shows that the name of the father is blank (English records being not interested in who the mother was...).

Ruth

My husband's father was born in Stirling, Stirlingshire, Scotland on Dec. 21, 1921.  His records are going to be available.  Since we live in Canada and the cost is quite a lot of money, I'm choosing to wait on this one.

The full fee is still very cheap compared with other countries.

However, the index suggests no father is named on his BC otherwise he'd have been registered under both surnames which it appears he isn't.

Annie

I was checking out Ancestry and came across John George Murray re UK and Ireland, Find a Grave Index, Death, Burial, Cemetery and obituaries.  He was born in Dundee city, Scotland and died at sea on 8 Sept 1944. 
[/color]
Would anyone be able to confirm if this gentleman is our John Murray Sr.?

[muriellecampbell]

The Certified Copy of their Entry of Marriage on 12 August 1944;  Registration District FYLDE in the County of Lancaster.   Column 2:  John Murray Seaman (Merchant Service) , Annie Melville Campbell Housekeeper.  Column 7 (Father's Name and Surname) was blank.  Column 8  (Rank or Profession of Father) was also blank.  Signed by Registrar of Marriages Robert J. Waring.

I think info and columns are being confused unfortunately.

Column 2 is the name of the groom/ bride
Column 7 & 8 is the name of the father of groom/ bride and then his occupation.

Mother's name was not included on marriage registrations.

See an example here www.family-tree.co.uk/getting-started/getting-started/what-information-can-be-found-on-a-marriage-certificate/

Monica

I think this has actually conflated John Murray's (b. 1925) birth registration with Robert Murray Campbell's (b. 1921) marriage. The 'column 2' information, I think, comes from the birth, while the rest is the marriage. Murielle has a copy of Robert Murray Campbell's marriage record on her Ancestry tree, which clearly shows that the name of the father is blank (English records being not interested in who the mother was...).

Ruth

My husband's father was born in Stirling, Stirlingshire, Scotland on Dec. 21, 1921.  His records are going to be available.  Since we live in Canada and the cost is quite a lot of money, I'm choosing to wait on this one.

The full fee is still very cheap compared with other countries.

However, the index suggests no father is named on his BC otherwise he'd have been registered under both surnames which it appears he isn't.

Annie

I was checking out Ancestry and came across John George Murray re UK and Ireland, Find a Grave Index, Death, Burial, Cemetery and obituaries.  He was born in Dundee city, Scotland and died at sea on 8 Sept 1944. 
[/color]
Would anyone be able to confirm if this gentleman is our John Murray Sr.?

I found a "Grace Smith Family Tree on familysearch.org that has John Murray b) Stirlingshire, Scotland possible birth 1901 or this could be his residence in 1901.  Do you have any access to Family Trees?  Would be interested to find out if we are definitely getting closer to find John Murray Snr.

[Forfarian]

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission web site has

Fifth Engineer Officer JOHN GEORGE MURRAY
Regiment & Unit/Ship: Merchant Navy
S.S. Empire Heritage (Cardiff)
Date of Death: Died 08 September 1944
Age 24 years old
Buried or commemorated at TOWER HILL MEMORIAL Panel 42.
United Kingdom

If he was 24 on 8 September 1944, he was born between 9 September 1919 and 8 September 1920. The Scotland's People births index lists a John George Murray born 1920 in Dundee St Clement.

Therefore this John Murray clearly cannot be the father of Robert Campbell Murray, as he was aged only at most two when Robert was born in 1922.

The original FindAGrave listing (not the index at Ancestry which is clearly defective because it fails to mention his age) describes him as the husband of Mary Murray, 160 Hilltown, Dundee. John George Murray married Mary Kerr or Ogilvie in Dundee St Clement in 1941.