John Murray

[muriellecampbell]

Murielle, not sure you have the right John Murray for your Robert.

John Campbell Murray, son of Hugh Murray and Isabella Campbell, married on 12 Sept 1924 in Larbert, Stirlingshire to an Amelia Crawford. His occupation is showing as that of a jobbing gardener. Address is the family home, Craigend Farm. His brother George Strathie Murray was one of the witnesses.

You are right, it does appear that this John Campbell Murray is not the the right John Murray for my father-in-law Robert Murray Campbell.

There is also a possible death for this John on SP:

Dated May 20, 2022 - John Campbell Murray died in 1980 on Ancestry in Waitakere, Auckland, New Zealand.  Do you have this information?

JOHN CAMPBELL MURRAY
Age 82
Mother's maiden name CAMPBELL
1980
Ref 473/ 662
Stirling

Monica

A relative of my husband's Wilson connection gave me a name to check out.  There was a John Murray living at 46 Cowane Street, a tenant listed as a Labourer.  This would be a short distance from 66 Cowane Street which was a boarding house at that time.  He was there in 1921, 1924 and 1925, but not in 1930.  Could he possibly be the John Murray we are looking for?  Thank you anyone for the help.

This John was still there in 1930. Indeed, he died at that address in 1934 at the age of 72. His occupation is showing as Burgh Labourer, married to a Mary Stack (1897 Stirling).

No children showing with them in 1901 as I think this may be their entry:

John Murray 38 Head carter b. Stirling
Mary Murray 36 Wife b. Stirling
John Coyne 24 Boarder b. Ireland

Address:118 Baker St, Stirling

Monica

[muriellecampbell]

From one of your previous threads over 5 yrs ago, did you follow it up, what was the outcome?

Death Record

MURRAY JOHN 29
1925
041/MR 33
MARINE RETURN

This John Murray was a fireman aboard the Field Marshal Robertson, which went missing (presumed sunk) on 7th Feb 1925. He was from Lochgelly, Fife.

ADDED: he was born on 19 Dec 1894, Lochgelly - the son of Adam Murray, coal miner, and Janet Black (m. 1893, Kinglassie, Fife).

HI Ruth,  The John Murray that died on 7th Feb. 1925 did not seem to fit the criteria for our John Murray at the time 5 years ago.  We forgot Annie Campbell was probably pregnant for her son John Murray Jr. who was born on 17 July 1925.  John Murray Sr. being a seaman in the Merchant Service  would not have been a coal miner business???



Ruth

Murielle, not sure you have the right John Murray for your Robert.

John Campbell Murray, son of Hugh Murray and Isabella Campbell, married on 12 Sept 1924 in Larbert, Stirlingshire to an Amelia Crawford. His occupation is showing as that of a jobbing gardener. Address is the family home, Craigend Farm. His brother George Strathie Murray was one of the witnesses.

You are right, it does appear that this John Campbell Murray is not the the right John Murray for my father-in-law Robert Murray Campbell.

There is also a possible death for this John on SP:

Dated May 20, 2022 - John Campbell Murray died in 1980 on Ancestry in Waitakere, Auckland, New Zealand.  Do you have this information?

JOHN CAMPBELL MURRAY
Age 82
Mother's maiden name CAMPBELL
1980
Ref 473/ 662
Stirling

Monica

A relative of my husband's Wilson connection gave me a name to check out.  There was a John Murray living at 46 Cowane Street, a tenant listed as a Labourer.  This would be a short distance from 66 Cowane Street which was a boarding house at that time.  He was there in 1921, 1924 and 1925, but not in 1930.  Could he possibly be the John Murray we are looking for?  Thank you anyone for the help.

This John was still there in 1930. Indeed, he died at that address in 1934 at the age of 72. His occupation is showing as Burgh Labourer, married to a Mary Stack (1897 Stirling).

No children showing with them in 1901 as I think this may be their entry:

John Murray 38 Head carter b. Stirling
Mary Murray 36 Wife b. Stirling
John Coyne 24 Boarder b. Ireland

Address:118 Baker St, Stirling

Monica

[muriellecampbell]

New thread...https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=862271.0;topicseen

Would it not have been an idea to update this thread with the new info. rather than start a new thread as it keeps everything together & all info. is searchable on the one thread?

Annie

  So sorry, Annie.  That was a mistake.  I apologize.

[muriellecampbell]

Can someone on Rootschat for Scotland confirm if indeed John Murray is the biological father of my father-in-law Robert Murray Campbell.   

It's highly unlikely unfortunately, anyone could confirm the above unless via DNA matches with your husband.

Has your husband done a DNA test & have the relations of John Murray Jnr. done DNA?
The results of matching will help to determine whether John Murray Snr. was the father of Robert Murray Campbell.

The Certified Copy of their Entry of Marriage on 12 August 1944;  Registration District FYLDE in the County of Lancaster.   Column 2:  John Murray Seaman (Merchant Service) , Annie Melville Campbell Housekeeper.  Column 7 (Father's Name and Surname) was blank.  Column 8  (Rank or Profession of Father) was also blank.  Signed by Registrar of Marriages Robert J. Waring.

There appears to be too much speculation on who the parents of John Murray Snr. were, considering he left the columns blank regarding his father.
Might this indicate he was also illegitimate?

Annie

I know for sure that Robert Murray Campbell was illegitimate when he was born in 1921.  As for John Murray Snr.  I do not know that information.  No one in the family relatives provided any information as well.  So it has made it extra difficult in coming to a conclusion for me.  I am so glad that you are here to help.   

I do have another possibility.  According to a family member on the Wilson (John William Buchan Wilson who married Annie Melville Campbell on Oct 31, 1931) lineage, this lady mentioned a John Robert Murray (they called Poppa Jack) b) 1889 Lerwick, Shetland, Scotland.  He died in Davenport, North Shore, Auckland, New Zealand on 7 Oct 1958, and was buried in Waitakere, same place as Annie and John Murray Jr.  He married Hazel Alice Fergus b) 1892-1967 both dates in Auckland, New Zealand.   They married 24 1914.  Would he be the fellow that Annie Melville Campbell had the boys with in 1921 and in 1925?    This would be a load off my shoulders if indeed he was the right guy.  Can't wait to hear from you all.  Thank you so much in advance.

[ruthhelen]

I do have another possibility.  According to a family member on the Wilson (John William Buchan Wilson who married Annie Melville Campbell on Oct 31, 1931) lineage, this lady mentioned a John Robert Murray (they called Poppa Jack) b) 1889 Lerwick, Shetland, Scotland.  He died in Davenport, North Shore, Auckland, New Zealand on 7 Oct 1958, and was buried in Waitakere, same place as Annie and John Murray Jr.  He married Hazel Alice Fergus b) 1892-1967 both dates in Auckland, New Zealand.   They married 24 1914.  Would he be the fellow that Annie Melville Campbell had the boys with in 1921 and in 1925?    This would be a load off my shoulders if indeed he was the right guy.  Can't wait to hear from you all.  Thank you so much in advance.

That seems extremely unlikely - John Robert Murray was a dock labourer and he married in New Zealand in 1914. He appears in the NZ electoral registers in Devonport in 1919, 1922 and 1925 - and indeed up until his death. He was the son of John Murray and Lillias Thomason, both from Shetland. His father was a fisherman and died two years after John Robert was born - presumably at sea. Lillias Thomason died in 1946 in Shetland.

Ruth

[ruthhelen]

HI Ruth,  The John Murray that died on 7th Feb. 1925 did not seem to fit the criteria for our John Murray at the time 5 years ago.  We forgot Annie Campbell was probably pregnant for her son John Murray Jr. who was born on 17 July 1925.  John Murray Sr. being a seaman in the Merchant Service  would not have been a coal miner business???

He was a fireman - i.e. someone who shovelled coal into the engines (remember we're talking steam ships here) - the Field Marshal Robertson was a merchant vessel - a trawler, in fact - although it operated as a minesweeper during the war. The ship was lost in bad weather while returning from Iceland, although the wreck has never been found - you can read about the ship and its end here: https://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?166827

However, as you have already said that John Murray was present in Stirling at the registration of his son John's birth in July 1925 (which I've only just spotted in one of the previous posts  ), then clearly this can't be him.

Ruth

[muriellecampbell]

From one of your previous threads over 5 yrs ago, did you follow it up, what was the outcome?

Death Record

MURRAY JOHN 29
1925
041/MR 33
MARINE RETURN

Thank you Ruth for your information.  I am going to do a bit of digging on this information.

This John Murray was a fireman aboard the Field Marshal Robertson, which went missing (presumed sunk) on 7th Feb 1925. He was from Lochgelly, Fife.

ADDED: he was born on 19 Dec 1894, Lochgelly - the son of Adam Murray, coal miner, and Janet Black (m. 1893, Kinglassie, Fife).

Ruth

[MonicaL]

If he died in 1980 like I have on my records.  Would the Ref 473/662 have been from Auckland, New Zealand instead of Stirling.  Can you explain?  Thank you Monica!!!

The reference you quote is from the death index entry in Stirling on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk for who we believe was John Campbell Murray, son of Hugh Murray and Isabella Campbell. Needs to be confirmed but would need to be ordered.

Scotlands People only include deaths that took place in Scotland.

Monica

[MonicaL]

The Certified Copy of their Entry of Marriage on 12 August 1944;  Registration District FYLDE in the County of Lancaster.   Column 2:  John Murray Seaman (Merchant Service) , Annie Melville Campbell Housekeeper.  Column 7 (Father's Name and Surname) was blank.  Column 8  (Rank or Profession of Father) was also blank.  Signed by Registrar of Marriages Robert J. Waring.

I think info and columns are being confused unfortunately.

Column 2 is the name of the groom/ bride
Column 7 & 8 is the name of the father of groom/ bride and then his occupation.

Mother's name was not included on marriage registrations.

See an example here www.family-tree.co.uk/getting-started/getting-started/what-information-can-be-found-on-a-marriage-certificate/

Monica