Leahy/Lahey, Hagan, Gurran family

[sbeckley]

hi further info  that I cannot verify
Ellen's father Martin may have married Brigida Egan feb 1843 at Ballaghaderreen, Roscommon.
Martin's father Johannis, Brigida's father Michael.
Cannot find Ellen's birth, can anyone help?

thanks

[heywood]

Here is that marriage - February 1843 (bottom of right hand page)
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632289#page/40/mode/1up

Those others names are witnesses rather than fathers’ names but they might be that too. There is an annotation difficult to read but it refers, I think, to consanguinity 3rd degree - relationship.
I will ask Maiden Stone, who might take a look and see.
There is a gap in baptisms in the records 

[Maiden Stone]

Ellen is a widow at the same address, 1 Wray's Yard, in 1911. This is her birth place, Connaught ??

Roscommon/Mayo border near Ballaghaderreen changed late 19th C. Both counties are in the province of Connaught. Ellen's birthplace may have switched counties, which would explain why she didn't specify a county, she may have been unsure which county to put. Ballinasloe is another Roscommon town which changed counties. Some people born in Ballinasloe who lived in Britain wrote the town but not a county on census returns.
I read your message about the marriage register, heywood.

[Maiden Stone]

Here is that marriage - February 1843 (bottom of right hand page)
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632289#page/40/mode/1up

Those others names are witnesses rather than fathers’ names but they might be that too. There is an annotation difficult to read but it refers, I think, to consanguinity 3rd degree - relationship.

I agree with heywood. Witnesses (column heading is "Testes"). Consanguinity 3rd degree for both groom and bride. They had a common ancestor (related by blood). Martin and Bridget were the same generation as each other.

Scrawl is hard to read. I couldn't even make out groom's surname.
My original transcription. [  ] = unreadable.
"Martinus [    ]
 Brigida Egan
Witnesses Johannes [    ] (same surname as groom), Michaelis Egan
 [  ] 3  3
con.  [  ]abus
Unsure if date was 26th or 27th. Word in date column is "die" (day) but no number.  Previous weddings were 26th. Weddings on next page were 27th. February was a traditional month for weddings.

Reading others with similar notes helps.
2 weddings on same page, 25th Feb.
 Michael Egan & Maria Egan  con. grad[  ] (Both witnesses Martin Egan)
 Ant..  Dorkin & Serah (Sarah) Regan
Facing page:
5th Feb. Jacobus Closs[   ] & Elinora Quin
17th Feb. Patritius Morris & Brigida Ha[  ]
19th Feb. Ro[   ] Regan & Catherina Costello (?)

Comparing all those I think note next to Martin [  ] & Brigid Egan is:
"Im. 3 3
 con. gradibus"
"Im" Latin abbreviation  for impediment.

P.S. Not relevant to this enquiry but, I saw another interesting note at top of facing page. I think it is about the woman who married that day asking in 1908 for written evidence of her wedding so that she could use it as proof she was old enough (70+) to apply for the new state pension.




 

[heywood]

Thanks M S.

[Maiden Stone]

 Consanguinity 3rd degree for both groom and bride. They had a common ancestor (related by blood). Martin and Bridget were the same generation as each other.

Martin and Bridget were probably 2nd cousins (a common great-grandparent) if the priest had worked out their relationship correctly.

[sbeckley]

thank you Heyward and Maiden Stone

Your knowledge of the catholic church records is really helpful. I am really grateful.

[Maiden Stone]

"10 FAQs about Irish Marriages"
https://irelandxo.com/ireland-xo/news/ten-faqs-about-irish-marriage-records
It's a long article but worth reading. An important point it makes is that there were many differences pre- and post- Famine. I disagree with a statement by the author that a female witness was always recorded in Catholic registers under her maiden surname. It may have been a custom in certain areas but I don't believe it happened everywhere. My married female ancestors and relatives who were marriage witnesses and baptism sponsors in Mayo (some not far from Ballaghaderreen) used their married names. Heywood may have an opinion.
There are informative articles about many topics in the "News" section of Ireland Reaching Out aka IrelandXO. It's a FH website for the Irish diaspora.

thank you Heyward and Maiden Stone

Your knowledge of the catholic church records is really helpful. I am really grateful.

There are many threads on RootsChat about understanding Catholic marriage registers, marriage dispensations and consanguinity. Heywood and I have contributed to several.

Many Irish Catholic priests seemed to have their own styles and preferences when writing up marriage registers in that era.. Names of people getting married and names of witnesses were the only items of information that were included in every one. Marriage register in my GF's parish has degrees of consanguinity or affinity in the final column, like the Egan marriage. The one in my GM's parish didn't mention consanguinity; the last column was used to note stipends (money offerings to the church). Parish of my GF's 1st wife's family had a big register with printed headed columns on a double-page, with names of mothers & fathers + their addresses + addresses of witnesses.