Author Topic: Men in Carmarthen not marrying their partners in the 19th century puzzle  (Read 2432 times)

Offline Caliandris

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Men in Carmarthen not marrying their partners in the 19th century puzzle
« on: Wednesday 23 March 22 12:57 GMT (UK) »
I would be very grateful if anyone can shed light on this puzzle, which has been driving me a bit crazy since I first learned of it.

My four greats grandfather, Charles Henry Hughes, was borough treasurer, a solicitor, a J.P. and generally a pillar of middle-class community in Carmarthen. He had five children with Ann Jones. He accepted responsibility for the children, and gave them his surname. He lived with them after the presumed death of their mother. He made arrangements for them to have money from his estate after his death (1879), and left them the property he was living in. 

His parents were married, and his father was mayor of Carmarthen on a number of occasions and so they were a respectable family and so I looked for explanations for him not marrying his partner, such as a pre-existing marriage or some other reason.  I can find none, although Charles Hughes is a common name in Wales.

What became even more strange, was that I discovered his brother, David Walter Hughes (1813-1850) did exactly the same.  He didn't marry his partner, but took responsibility for his children and made arrangements for both partner and children to be looked after financially after his death.

His sister, Sophia Hughes (1807-1878) did marry, to Lewis Morris, but their son, Lewis Morris, who was a barrister and a poet, had to be made to marry his partner, with whom he lived before marriage.

It seems that Charles and David's other brother John may also have had a relationship with one of his nurses, and again, did not marry her.

If it was just my 4 greats grandfather, I would assume there must have been an obstacle to the marriage which could not be overcome.  However, the fact that both his brothers and his nephew also avoided or resisted marriage makes me feel sure there must have been a reason - maybe a religion or political movement or philosophical movement which resisted state-sanctioned marriage for some reason.

I have asked this question of historians specializing in Carmarthenshire and no one has been able to come up with any sort of explanation.  If anyone has any ideas, or suggestions for how I might research this, I'd be very glad to hear them.
Spivey, Hughes, Jones Carmarthen 19th c
Spivey, Armitage in Almondbury, Yorkshire 18th c
Dickins Staffordshire and Birmingham 18th and 19th c
Aldridge, Robey, Jearrad in London 18th and 19th
Pitt and Westlake Devon 17th and 18th c
Earwaker London and Hampshire 18th and 19th
Fitzpatrick in The Rower, Kilkenny, Ireland
Clarke, Hewitt, Starkey, Green in Cheshire 19th and 20th

Offline Pejic

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Re: Men in Carmarthen not marrying their partners in the 19th century puzzle
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 23 March 22 13:29 GMT (UK) »
My first thought was that there might have been a will where not marrying was a condition for some benefit.
Richard Wernham (Berkshire 18th century),
William Hissey (1805 to 1813, Hampstead Norris),
Kapirin (Siberia 19th Century),
Kitching 1850,
Mary Howse born 1806 ish,
Chris Truelove marr. John Pocock 2-7-1696, Kintbury, Berks

Offline Caliandris

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Re: Men in Carmarthen not marrying their partners in the 19th century puzzle
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 23 March 22 13:43 GMT (UK) »
Thank you for that thought - it isn't one I had thought of, and is a great idea, thank you!

I have copies of John Hughes's will and Charles and David's. The trouble with a name like Hughes in Carmarthen (not to mention Jones, his partner) is that it is SO difficult to know if you have the right family when you go further back.  There are so many John Hughes's that I can't locate the right one - it is possible they came from Pembrokeshire, as Charles's father John Edward Hughes's servant was sent there to let family know he was dead.

I shall be looking out for wills with restrictions on marriage now!
Spivey, Hughes, Jones Carmarthen 19th c
Spivey, Armitage in Almondbury, Yorkshire 18th c
Dickins Staffordshire and Birmingham 18th and 19th c
Aldridge, Robey, Jearrad in London 18th and 19th
Pitt and Westlake Devon 17th and 18th c
Earwaker London and Hampshire 18th and 19th
Fitzpatrick in The Rower, Kilkenny, Ireland
Clarke, Hewitt, Starkey, Green in Cheshire 19th and 20th

Offline Rena

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Re: Men in Carmarthen not marrying their partners in the 19th century puzzle
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 23 March 22 14:09 GMT (UK) »
Normally a couple marries in the bride's parish church, or the larger diocese church to which the bride's church belongs.

It's noticeable that the sister married in her parish church/Welsh chapel but the three brothers seem to not have been married.

I think thebrothers all married but the respective brides' Welsh Chapel's records may not be widely available, or maybe not available at all.

I find GENUKI website useful.  Here's the Carmarthenshire county webpage and you may find the Genuki page for the family's home town can assist:

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CMN

Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy: MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell: Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar; Ross: Urray:Mackenzie:  Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell: Perthshire: Brown Ferguson: Wales: McCarthy, Thomas: England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Well(es). Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells;Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke


Offline brigidmac

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Re: Men in Carmarthen not marrying their partners in the 19th century puzzle
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 23 March 22 14:10 GMT (UK) »
Pejic have you come across any clauses like that in wills

My great grandfather left his money only to his unmarried daughters but I assumed that was because his son and married daughters could look after themselves
Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid smith jones,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson

Online Drosybont

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Re: Men in Carmarthen not marrying their partners in the 19th century puzzle
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 23 March 22 14:16 GMT (UK) »
It is made very clear in David Walter Hughes's will - NLW 1850 - that he was not married to his partner, who is described as singlewoman.

Drosybont
Hotham, Guilliatt, Brown, Winter, Buck, Webster, Mortimore
Richards, Meredith, Gower, Davies, Todd, Westmacott, Hill
Mid C19 Cardiff and Haverfordwest, the Marychurch family.

Offline brigidmac

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Re: Men in Carmarthen not marrying their partners in the 19th century puzzle
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 23 March 22 14:32 GMT (UK) »
Could the not marrying have been a religious issue

I don't know much about it but remember hearing about feuds between " church" and "chapel" in Welsh villages

so maybe their respective  partners
Were from other "side"

* Were the children baptised ?
Roberts,Fellman.Macdermid smith jones,Bloch,Irvine,Hallis Stevenson

Offline Caliandris

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Re: Men in Carmarthen not marrying their partners in the 19th century puzzle
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 23 March 22 14:36 GMT (UK) »
Normally a couple marries in the bride's parish church, or the larger diocese church to which the bride's church belongs.

It's noticeable that the sister married in her parish church/Welsh chapel but the three brothers seem to not have been married.

I think thebrothers all married but the respective brides' Welsh Chapel's records may not be widely available, or maybe not available at all.
I find GENUKI website useful.  Here's the Carmarthenshire county webpage and you may find the Genuki page for the family's home town can assist:

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CMN

No it isn't that - the "brides" all lived separately from their partners, and none of them used a married name at any time, and they answered "single" to the censuses.  I'm familiar with the tradition of marrying in the bride's parish, but that doesn't answer the question in this case.  It isn't just that I failed to find marriages, but the partners lived apart and the women said they were single edited to add (after fixing the weird quotation thing):- as did the men!

Spivey, Hughes, Jones Carmarthen 19th c
Spivey, Armitage in Almondbury, Yorkshire 18th c
Dickins Staffordshire and Birmingham 18th and 19th c
Aldridge, Robey, Jearrad in London 18th and 19th
Pitt and Westlake Devon 17th and 18th c
Earwaker London and Hampshire 18th and 19th
Fitzpatrick in The Rower, Kilkenny, Ireland
Clarke, Hewitt, Starkey, Green in Cheshire 19th and 20th

Offline Rena

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Re: Men in Carmarthen not marrying their partners in the 19th century puzzle
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 23 March 22 15:28 GMT (UK) »
Normally a couple marries in the bride's parish church, or the larger diocese church to which the bride's church belongs.

It's noticeable that the sister married in her parish church/Welsh chapel but the three brothers seem to not have been married.

I think thebrothers all married but the respective brides' Welsh Chapel's records may not be widely available, or maybe not available at all.
I find GENUKI website useful.  Here's the Carmarthenshire county webpage and you may find the Genuki page for the family's home town can assist:

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CMN

No it isn't that - the "brides" all lived separately from their partners, and none of them used a married name at any time, and they answered "single" to the censuses.  I'm familiar with the tradition of marrying in the bride's parish, but that doesn't answer the question in this case.  It isn't just that I failed to find marriages, but the partners lived apart and the women said they were single edited to add (after fixing the weird quotation thing):- as did the men!

Thanks for the extra insight.

The old fashioned term for unmarried mothers when I was young was that they were "fallen women", but I never heard of any phrase ,or stigma attached to any man.

I have an ancestor who was the first child after his parents marriage in Hannover.  He had six older siblings who carried their father's surname and who lived with their maternal grandparents.
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy: MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell: Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar; Ross: Urray:Mackenzie:  Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell: Perthshire: Brown Ferguson: Wales: McCarthy, Thomas: England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Well(es). Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells;Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke