Grandparents married in Hull

[mckha489]

In light of those names there is this family. Which could of course be just co-incidental

1871 census
3 Cold Bath Square, St James, Clerkenwell

Naomi Batchelder head widow 52. Waistcoat maker  born Southend Essex
Elizabeth N. Batchelder 21 daughter,  b London, Middlesex
Frederick Batchelder 19, son, porter. b Willesden, Middlesex
Arthur Batchelder 17, son, compositor, b Southwark, Surrey
Willliam Batchelder, 15, son, Warehouse worker, b Southwark, Surrey


Births that fit that census are

BATCHELOR, Elizabeth Neaoma.    MMN WARREN.   1850, March, Marylebone, vol 01. page 215
BATCHELDER Frederick John, MMN WARREN   1851 D qtr, Hendon, vol 03 , page 272
BATCHELDER Asher    MMN WARREN. 1853, D qtr, St Saviour, vol 01D, page 22.  **
BATCHELDER William James MMN WARREN. 1855 D qtr St Saviour Vol 01D page 4


Is Asher = Arthur?   


so a marriage that fits is

James BATCHELDER
Naomi WARREN.            St Geo Han Sq 1/33/Dec 1850

5 December 1850,
James Batchelder, full age, bachelor, servant, Grosvenor Street, father James Batchelder, Farmer
Naomi Warren, full age, spinster,   Grosvenor Street, father William Warren, Gardener

All sign
Witnesses Charles Walden and Elizabeth Warren


1881
28 Gloucester St, St George Martyr

Naomi Batchelder 62, Mother, Waistcoat maker, born Prittlewell, Essex
Elizabeth 30 , waistcoat maker b Marylebone, Middx.

Possible death for Naomi 1889 age 74. St Giles, vol 01B page 317

[mckha489]

1861
14 Kenton St, St Giles

Naomi BATCHELER widow.  45, Mangler      All born London
Elizabeth 11
Frederick 9
Asia 7
William 5

[uksouthafrica]

Thank you to all who assisted but I don’t think these families fit. My father’s birth certificate states dob 21 Jan 1906 Lever Street Woodstock, Cape Town. Father Frederick Batchelor England; Mother Elizabeth Emily Burgess England.
I found Frederick Batchelor in GRO Marriage Ja, Feb and March 1987 Hull, volume 9d, page 387

[Neale1961]

Are you able to provide more information, please.
Who did your father marry, where and when? Do you have his marriage certificate?
Where and when did your father die? What was his occupation?

[uksouthafrica]

Father: Frederick Warren Batchelor (spelt Batchelder in some documents) born in Cape Town 21.6.1906 to British parents: Elizabeth Emily Burgess & Frederick Batchelor. The latter married in district Hull, March 1897, vol 9d, page 387. Frederick Batchelor born in Hull June 1871, vol 9d, page 237. I’m assuming they are my grandparents. No info on their deaths. I’m assuming he was in Lord Kitcheners army in SA. My father Frederick Warren (Batchelor) married Christina Johanna Petronella Conradie 21.9.1940 in Cape Town & died as Frederick Warren Batchelder on 28.10.1962 in Cape Town. He went to war as a Cape Highlander.

[mckha489]

Excuse these questions, but I just want to be clear.

1. I assume the birth certificate is an actual S.A. Registry office document?
2. Does it name Frederick Warren or is he just recorded as a “male”.
3. When was it issued?  I.e. was it obtained later in his life?  It should have a date of issue on it.

Reason for asking:-

The family in reply 1, who I am sure are the Frederick Batchelor/Emily Burgess couple

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7T9-3M3

Have a son Joseph Henry Kirk Batchelor.  Born Cape Colony.
At age 33 he gives his date of birth as 26 January 1906.  When he died his DoB is given as 21 July 1906.  Some people abbreviate January as Jan’y or other version ending in y and I have seen it where it is hard to distinguish from July.

I cannot help wondering if there has been a muddle up somewhere

I have a suspicion that Joseph’s name may not have been set in concrete until 1907 because the marriage certificate of Frederick and Elizabeth Emily has been annotated

Originally it had Frederick’s father as William, and his occupation as Blacksmith
But the annotation dated 25 Jan 1907 says

“In Col 7 omit William Batchelor and insert Joseph John Kirk. And in Col 8 omit Blacksmith  and insert Brick maker”

Signed by the curate in charge on 25 Jan 1907


I cannot help wondering if Frederick Warren (or someone else) applied for his birth certificate and was given the wrong one!   

[Mabel Bagshawe]

If you look back at my posts early on in this thread, they travelled out in 1903 and 1904 (father first, mother and kids later) and back in 1907, so Fred snr was not part of the army. My guess is that as he's listed as a bricklayer working for a railway company, he went out to work on a railway construction project for a few years

My worry about Frederick Warren being an alternative name for Joseph is that the Hull family have another Frederick, born in 1912. Both keep that name in later censuses

Also, how certain are you about a brother called Edward? Is this an assumption from the Bachelder records in South Africa? There's no Edward in the Hull family

[mckha489]

No I don’t think Frederick is an Alternative for Joseph.
I think they are two different people

But that Frederick was issued the wrong birth certificate, because I am assuming that Joseph’s birth certificate says “Male”

Added, and Joseph can be followed in England until his death

[Mabel Bagshawe]

Father: Frederick Warren Batchelor (spelt Batchelder in some documents) born in Cape Town 21.6.1906 to British parents: Elizabeth Emily Burgess & Frederick Batchelor. The latter married in district Hull, March 1897, vol 9d, page 387. Frederick Batchelor born in Hull June 1871, vol 9d, page 237. I’m assuming they are my grandparents. No info on their deaths. I’m assuming he was in Lord Kitcheners army in SA. My father Frederick Warren (Batchelor) married Christina Johanna Petronella Conradie 21.9.1940 in Cape Town & died as Frederick Warren Batchelder on 28.10.1962 in Cape Town. He went to war as a Cape Highlander.

According to the various records Frederick who marries Elizabeth Emily was born in c1877 not 1871

The most likely birth registration is in Q4 1876, with no mother's maiden name. He's with William the blacksmith and wife Mary  in 1881 and 1891. William and Mary are old enough to have a daughter in her 20s in 1881, who might be Frederick snr's mother, with Mr Kirk the father. That might explain the marriage cert name changes