Sybil Edith Crase

[Dundee]

Edith's 2nd husband, Harold George Crase was a well known businessman (sourced from Trove) so I felt if he was Sybil's father / Step Father / Guardian, Sybil's marriage notice & cert. wouldn't have said J R Crase was her father, and acknowledges Harold in some way. Also checked Harold's tree & couldn't find a likely J R.

Sybil was living at the same address as Harold George's mother in law in Subiaco, perhaps he had little to do with her.

I would want to see this death certificate to see if there is any connection, particularly the mother's maiden surname.  Findagrave suggests that it was an infant.

NSW Death

FORSTER, SYBIL G C
1132/1901
Father: GEORGE
Mother: EDITH A
CHATSWOOD

Died 3 Jan 1901

Debra 

[Valsgirl]

I'm the Author of this subject & I'm completely lost, so I'll do a bit of back tracking!

There is a fixation among forum members that Harold George Crase is Sybil Edith Crase's father.
Repeating myself, but why has Sybil said her father is John Robert Crase from NSW in a newspaper marriage notice, and on her marriage certificate? It's also stated that her parents are dead - died pre 1923. 
Edith Annie Forster, nee Douglas  doesn't marry H G Crase until 1902 (Sybil born 1901). When Edith & Harold's divorce is aired in court, all Edith's dirty linen is aired. I presume  an illegitimate child would be mentioned.
Marion K Kemp, Harold's 2nd wife was at Adelaide Conservatorium for 3 years, graduating in December 1903. During that time, Marion is performing in concerts etc. I doubt she's had time to have a baby to Harold G Crase, 9 years before she marries him. 
Re Forster death certificate - note death recorded Jan 1901. Edith & George Forster were divorced in Dec 1898, after 6 months marriage, from  Jan - June 1896. I need to check again for a Forster birth.
I have missed the fact that Sybil is living with Harold Crase's Mother in Law, in Subiaco, Perth. When? Address? Can someone please post that source?
Eleanor Crase. I agree it is possible she is a relation. Maybe even a sister - I can't find a birth record for her.
We have enough ideas & names on this forum post to confuse us all, without me adding Sybil's Adelaide Conservatorium Benefactor. She was a rich "old Lady" that I suspect helped many young ladies with musical talent.
So good to have lots of helpful input. Thanks everyone.
Valsgirl

[majm]

I'm the Author of this subject & I'm completely lost, so I'll do a bit of back tracking!

There is a fixation among forum members that Harold George Crase is Sybil Edith Crase's father.
Repeating myself, but why has Sybil said her father is John Robert Crase from NSW in a newspaper marriage notice, and on her marriage certificate? It's also stated that her parents are dead - died pre 1923. 
Edith Annie Forster, nee Douglas  doesn't marry H G Crase until 1902 (Sybil born 1901). When Edith & Harold's divorce is aired in court, all Edith's dirty linen is aired. I presume  an illegitimate child would be mentioned.
Marion K Kemp, Harold's 2nd wife was at Adelaide Conservatorium for 3 years, graduating in December 1903. During that time, Marion is performing in concerts etc. I doubt she's had time to have a baby to Harold G Crase, 9 years before she marries him. 
Re Forster death certificate - note death recorded Jan 1901. Edith & George Forster were divorced in Dec 1898, after 6 months marriage, from  Jan - June 1896. I need to check again for a Forster birth.
I have missed the fact that Sybil is living with Harold Crase's Mother in Law, in Subiaco, Perth. When? Address? Can someone please post that source?
Eleanor Crase. I agree it is possible she is a relation. Maybe even a sister - I can't find a birth record for her.
We have enough ideas & names on this forum post to confuse us all, without me adding Sybil's Adelaide Conservatorium Benefactor. She was a rich "old Lady" that I suspect helped many young ladies with musical talent.
So good to have lots of helpful input. Thanks everyone.
Valsgirl

Hi there,

I have been following this thread closely.  I am somewhat shocked that you feel that the members are fixated about Harold George.    I don't read it that way at all.  I do know it can be important to assemble possible candidates and to confirm or eliminate or leave as pending etc.   

I am sure everyone is trying to help your  quest.  I know I have looked through my own extensive offline collection of NSW names.   I have not YET found John Robert.   I continue  looking.

On the m.c. where Sybil nominates John Robert as her deceased father,  what else is recorded about

  her parents
  her own origins
  Her usual address and occupation
  the clergy, denomination, address of ceremony
  the witnesses

I have asked my ancient living relatives to read through this thread to see if there's anything they can add. That includes retired NSWBDM senior officers, clergy and archivists .

Patience, diligence and documentation should be sought out.

JM

[majm]

NSWBDM online index deaths
John J CRUSE, registered Newtown district in 1913. #10463

I have not looked for cemetery or for newspaper notices.  His parents recorded on index as William & Catherine.

I can find William CRUISE at Station St, Newtown in that era.

Watch the spelling.  Remember the bdm registers ate in longhand in that era, and on verbal info..  Some clerks wrote well, but alas some were scribblers

JM

[sparrett]

I'm the Author of this subject & I'm completely lost, so I'll do a bit of back tracking!

There is a fixation among forum members that Harold George Crase is Sybil Edith Crase's father.

Marion K Kemp, Harold's 2nd wife was at Adelaide Conservatorium for 3 years, graduating in December 1903. During that time, Marion is performing in concerts etc. I doubt she's had time to have a baby to Harold G Crase, 9 years before she marries him. 
 
Valsgirl

In my discussion of Marion Madame KEMP I had not suggested or stated that Harold George CRASE was the father of Sybil.

You have assumed that was my interpretation, but you are mistaken.

My line of thought was that Marion was unmarried, and may well have had an ex-nuptial child who took the name CRASE at Marion's marriage.

This is not unusual.

Likewise, the same situation may apply to Edith Annie FORSTER (nee DOUGLAS) An ex-nuptial  daughter who assumed the CRASE name upon Edith's marriage but as a result of the divorce went to the care of Edith's mother Mary Elizabeth DOUGLAS.

Sue

ADDING per your query.
Reply #12 and Reply #17 give the information about the address 117 Hay St.
 

[majm]

I do not know about divorce laws in that era except for NSW divorces.  So I mention that Ex nuptials were not children of the subject marriage and thus the Divorce proceedings did not address them.

JM.

[judb]

This is a very interesting search.

Valsgirl, It is very helpful if you give us as much information as you have.  You say that Sybil's Conservatorium benefactor was a "rich old lady' and you suspect that she helped many young ladies.  This may be so BUT there may be another connection.

As you have seen, there are Rootschatters here with a wealth of experience and who have a superb track record. For example TreeSpirit (Reply #12) found addresses for Sybil in 1914 which may show that she was at the same address as a Mrs M Douglas - is this Edith A Douglas/Forster/Crase's mother?

You have discounted the idea that Edith may have been Sybil's mother as Edith did not marry H G Cruse until 1902; however he states in the report of the divorce case already quoted https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/207405844
that he had met Edith about 2 years before their marriage in 1902.  So, it would seem possible that Edith may have had a child 1900-1902 - whether, given the picture painted by that newspaper report, H G Crase was the father or not.
Looking at records - Edith's child with George FORSTER died 3 January 1901, their divorce became absolute 24 January 1901, Edit to add - see below but I cannot see any notices re the actual filing for divorce. (Do I recall that it used to be 6 months from decree nisi to decree absolute?)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14371791
I cannot see a birth for the child whose death Debra found (Reply #36)
FORSTER, SYBIL G C
1132/1901
Father: GEORGE
Mother: EDITH A
CHATSWOOD

As to why Sybil might give what appears to be a fictitious father's name on her marriage record, plenty of speculations spring to mind.  It is quite common for people to give incorrect information because they do not know the correct information or are trying to mislead.

Judith

[Jennaya]

It is possible that Sybil was told incorrect information about her parents during her childhood.

Another possibility is that she has changed her parents names and details in order to cover up a less than illustrious upbringing.

[judb]

This is the reference for the filing of divorce by Edith from Frederick FORSTER, as already found by wivenhoe, November 1899. The petition states that Edith had deserted George. 
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14228366

Judith