Brick Wall. Henry and Thomas Mantell, possibly Shropshire and Birmingham.

[JenB]

If you look at that 1851 Workhouse entry you will notice the large number of ticks in that column that should be for blind etc.

If you look carefully it appears the ticks are all in columns where the person was born outside Warwickshire.

I suspect the people are not disabled but ticks have been put in the wrong column.

Yes you're right. Looking at the previous and subsequent pages the ticks have been put in the  margin rather than in the disability column and also apply only to people born outside Warwickshire.

[yecartmannew]

Throwing this into the mix if I may.

The 1851 census has a James** & Henry in the workhouse. Possibly both parents have died or abandoned children. Henry born c 1845

dq 1838 a Humphrey Mantell (occupation Millwright) marries a Louisa Claybrook/Claybrock. His father James Mantell occ Millwright. Henry records his father as a Millwright at marriage

Baptism of a Humphrey MANTLE 1.12.1816 Hopton Wafers Shropshire. Parents James & Sarah.

1841 census HO107  1001  10 13 has
Humphrey Mantell 20 not born in county
Louisa 25 not born in county
Thomas* 2 not born in county
James** 6 months born in county __is this possibly the James in 1851 census

Buried 24.8.1848 Louise Mantell aged 32 Wife of Humphrey Mantell
No sign of Humphrey after her death(that I can find)

Thomas* Mansell in 1851 census with his uncle James Mantell. James born c1810 what looks like Hopton Watfers, Shropshire.

If our Henry was corn c 1845 and by 1851 is in the workhouse he may not have known his father forenmae.

It does not answer I know where he may have been born.

John

Argg, I'm even more confused now.

Things I know for sure:

1. Our Henry Mantell b. abt 1845 in Birmingham (multiple later sources all agree on this, but no actual birth record)
2. Another Henry Mantell around the same age and location found in several documents. He is a milkseller and seems to be poor.
3. Pretty sure Our Henry (OH) was not disabled. He went on to own a successful hair dressing business, employing others, and there is no family lore about any disability
4. OH marries Catherine Alexander in 1871 and states on his BC father Thomas, deceased, Mill Wright.
5. Somewhere in the family I'm fiarly certain there is a connection to Hopton Wafers through other family members. I have been trying to connect the branch for some time and I think Henry's father Thomas might be the key.
6. James and Sarah are the furthest ancestors of the rogue branch, so they might be the common ancestor but I have only so far found 2 children for them, Elizabeth and Charles. Looks like I might be able to add Humphrey now.

Hypothesis:
1. Thomas Mantell on 1841 census in Hopton Wafers is correct, but occupation is wrong, OR occupation given by Henry on marriage is wrong
2. James b 1771 and Thomas b.1776 could be brothers? This would make the relationship between Joan and Creighton 3rd cousins. (I thought they were closer than that though)

Family tree is here if anyone is interested. https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/181280334/family/familyview?cfpid=282360063694

[jaywit]

If you read mine and Jen B's posts you will see Henry was not disabled, tick in wrong place

[JenB]

OH marries Catherine Alexander in 1871 and states on his BC father Thomas, deceased, Mill Wright.

The marriage cert also has a witness named Priscilla Mantell. Have you followed her up as a possible lead?

In 1871 there is a Priscilla Mantell with husband Charles, born Hopton Wafers.

With them is a 30 year-old nephew James. Is this the same James who was in the workhouse in 1851?

RG 10/3099/96/27

[yecartmannew]

OH marries Catherine Alexander in 1871 and states on his BC father Thomas, deceased, Mill Wright.

The marriage cert also has a witness named Priscilla Mantell. Have you followed her up as a possible lead?

In 1871 there is a Priscilla Mantell with husband Charles, born Hopton Wafers.

With them is a 30 year-old nephew James. Is this the same James who was in the workhouse in 1851.

RG 10/3099/96/27

Yes, I have Pricilla b1822 mariied to Charles Mantel b.1820 (Son of James Mantell and Sarah).

If that is correct and nephew James is the same one from the workhouse, it makes sense that Henry is also the same one. So I need to try and find all children of James and Sarah to figure out which one is Henry and James father. Still don't have any idea where the France thing fits though, unless the mother was French perhaps...............

[yecartmannew]

So I'm wondering, did James and Sarah have a son Thomas. If he then ended up having 2 children in France (James and Henry) maybe thats why i cant find any tecords for him.....

[yecartmannew]

Aha, I just found John Thomas Mantle, Father James Mantle and Mother Sarah, Hopton Wafers, 1880.

I will do a bit more digging that way and see what pops up.

[Millmoor]

I wonder if the Thomas Mantell referred to in post 15 by John might be worth exploring further.

This is the 1851 census for him showing as nephew of James Mantell living in West Bromwich

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGGZ-TPJ

James Mantell's place of birth is clearly shown as Hopton Wafers in the following censuses. There is, I note, a baptism for a James Mantle 22 July 1810 in Neen Savage - parents James and Sarah. Neen Savage is very near to Hopton Wafers.

A search in the newspaper archive shows a notice in the Birmingham Journal  20 July 1867 of the marriage of Thomas Mantell. The wording is interesting as it states Thomas Mantell, nephew of James Mantell, coach builder. Like Henry's it was a non conformist wedding.

 Further newspaper notices from 1870 show that James Mantell was retiring from his coach building business in favour of his nephew Thomas.

James Mantell died in West Bromwich in 1880 aged 69 and left a will - might it be worth a punt in case Henry is mentioned?

( Also worth noting that the James showing as nephew to Charles in the 1871 census has the occupation of coach painter - presumably coach builders required coach painters!).

William

[softly softly]

For info only but still trying to build a picture.

Looking at your tree re Charles Mantell born c1820. You have him on 1851census  with sister Elizabeth and father James aged 80.

James Mantell died aged 85 in 1853 Birmingham

Charles married Priscilla BENNETT sq 1854.

Charles Mantell died aged 81 mq 1891 Kings Norton

Elizabeth Mantell died aged 57 sq 1869 w. Bromwich Elizabeth with her brother James in 1861 census both born Hopton Wafers.

Going to try and follow Thomas c 1839 from 1851 census to 1881 census.

John

Added
Thomas in 1871

Piece:   2985
Folio:   116
Page number:   2
Household Members   Age   Relationship

Thomas Mantell
31   Head
Sarah Mantell
32   Wife
Ernest Hollyoak Mantell   2   Son

1881

Piece:   2852
Folio:   14
Page Number:   21
Household Members:   
Name   Age
Thomas Mansell   41
Sarah Mansell   42
Ernest Hollyoak Mansell   12
Edith Mary Mansell   9