Author Topic: George Nicholls  (Read 2901 times)

Offline majm

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Re: George Nicholls
« Reply #36 on: Tuesday 22 February 22 06:50 GMT (UK) »
Well you are a very well read person.

 :D

JM
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Offline NevilleTB

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Re: George Nicholls
« Reply #37 on: Tuesday 22 February 22 07:32 GMT (UK) »
As long as I am not left on the shelf.

Offline NevilleTB

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Re: George Nicholls
« Reply #38 on: Thursday 24 February 22 01:30 GMT (UK) »
I am probably flogging a dead horse but here goes. I had two theories on Sarah Nicholls.

1. Theory one is that she was married before given she was 30 when she married William Pearsall and Nicholls was her married name. I checked her marriage record and she is a spinster. Does that mean she was never married? Not sure about the conventions of the time. There was a Sarah Street married a Thomas Nicholls in 1849 - 642/1849 - but found nothing more.

2 Second path was to try and trace any information on the witnesses. One was Mark Williams. There was a convict of that name who seems to have been in Port Macquarie where one George Nicholls spent some time, but Mark is much older than Sarah and William. He attained his ticket of leave in 1842. I thought he might have been a family friend of Sarah as she was born in 1835, but unclear when the families overlapped. George died in Sydney so must have returned at some point.
The second witness is Isaac but I cannot decipher his last name. Another question for the experts. Was it normal to have two witnesses who were male? Would they have been doing it as friends of the bride and groom, or in an official capacity?

As I said this is probably a blind ally but I thought I would throw it to the "brains trust" who have helped me so far.

Offline majm

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Re: George Nicholls
« Reply #39 on: Thursday 24 February 22 02:03 GMT (UK) »
In that era, in the NSW Church of England parish registers that I have accessed back as early as the 1970s as a volunteer transcribing the scribble of various clergy in those early registers, to more recent transcribing efforts even in this century....  Yes,  there's no real rhyme or reason to see a 'pattern' to the witnesses.   Sometimes there can be three or more 'signatures',  sometimes the witnesses sign in full with clear strong firm handwriting,  sometimes they scribble (although I feel that the clergy are by far the worst scribblers ever), sometimes the witnesses signatures are an Initial followed by a surname,  sometimes you can clearly say THREE ADULT MALES were witnesses based on the clear full names easily read off the register.  Sometimes you can say - hey, that person was not yet of full age, who gave consent for that marriage...  I have one of my ancestors whose witnesses include a child aged 12.  All valid, nothing odd at all,  definitely a child by my 21st century eyes.  But if you speak with experienced researchers they will likely remind you to consider the context - the then rules, then practices, then church practices, procedures etc.   

Remember too that NSW did not have any divorce laws until the mid 1870s.  So in NSW before civil registration commenced a clergyman had two options when HE filled out the various sections of HIS parish register.   He could record either spinster or widow for the female and either bachelor or widow(er) for the male.   So remembering that the clergy were responsible for obeying church laws and so the secular laws were not as significant as say the statute laws that apply in this century.  In the era that Sarah married, Formal Marriage was a church matter, that the secular laws had to respect.  Yes, de facto relationships were the domain of the civil courts. 

So, the question you are asking re spinster could be better asked if we consider the alternative ... Widow.     Queen Victoria became a widow when her lawful husband died in 1861.  Until then, right throughout the realms of the British Empire and throughout much of the countries outside of the Empire but where the was a strong allegience to the practices of the Anglicans or Roman Catholics or Presbyterians or Methodists or other Christian denominations - a widow was either a relict of a formal marriage that had ended with the burial of her husband or any female with her young children to support and NO male known to be supporting that family group. So in a broad sense that includes not just how you or I would consider a 'widow' as a female whose husband has died.  So a spinster could, in a broad sense in NSW in 1855 be considered a female who has no children and is not known to have a husband. 

Important to also remember that the laws of England - particularly the Marriage Acts from say July 1823 and later, had NO effect anywhere except in England and Wales.   But the 'Seven Years" laws from back in 1604 did apply right through the Empire, including NSW ... So a marriage in England was effectively terminated when a convicted person was transported to NSW as that was beyond the seas. 

I am typing this into a tiny dialogue box.   I will try to find the relevant threads that many experienced RChatters have contributed to regarding these matters, but you can look these matters up using RChats own search engine.

JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
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Offline majm

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Re: George Nicholls
« Reply #40 on: Thursday 24 February 22 02:19 GMT (UK) »
I have a different calculator from you.

I have the marriage of Sarah as 1855.  I have her as aged 20 when she married.   You have her as 30.

I am probably flogging a dead horse but here goes. I had two theories on Sarah Nicholls.

1. Theory one is that she was married before given she was 30 when she married William Pearsall and Nicholls was her married name. I checked her marriage record and she is a spinster. Does that mean she was never married? Not sure about the conventions of the time. There was a Sarah Street married a Thomas Nicholls in 1849 - 642/1849 - but found nothing more.

2 Second path was to try and trace any information on the witnesses. One was Mark Williams. There was a convict of that name who seems to have been in Port Macquarie where one George Nicholls spent some time, but Mark is much older than Sarah and William. He attained his ticket of leave in 1842. I thought he might have been a family friend of Sarah as she was born in 1835, but unclear when the families overlapped. George died in Sydney so must have returned at some point.
The second witness is Isaac but I cannot decipher his last name. Another question for the experts. Was it normal to have two witnesses who were male? Would they have been doing it as friends of the bride and groom, or in an official capacity?

As I said this is probably a blind ally but I thought I would throw it to the "brains trust" who have helped me so far.

The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
I do not have a face book or a twitter account.

Offline Neale1961

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Re: George Nicholls
« Reply #41 on: Thursday 24 February 22 03:04 GMT (UK) »
I believe the witnesses are
William May of St Marks’
Isaac Cribb of St James’ Glebe

I agree with JM her age on marriage is about 20.

Added - maybe this Isaac Cribb?
https://peopleaustralia.anu.edu.au/biography/cribb-isaac-31902
Milligan - Jardine – Glencross – Dinwoodie - Brown: (Dumfriesshire & Kirkcudbrightshire)
Clark – Faulds – Cuthbertson – Bryson – Wilson: (Ayrshire & Renfrewshire)
Neale – Cater – Kinder - Harrison: (Warwickshire & Queensland)
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Offline Dundee

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Re: George Nicholls
« Reply #42 on: Thursday 24 February 22 03:28 GMT (UK) »
I have been looking at Isaac CRIBB for a few days and that bio is incorrect.

Isaac CRIBB by the Baring in 1815  married Alice ADAMS and Sarah BROWN and he was of St James when he died.

Isaac CRIBB by the Atlas in 1819 married Bridget CLIFFORD.

Corrected because I got them the wrong way around  ;D

Debra  :)

Offline majm

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Re: George Nicholls
« Reply #43 on: Thursday 24 February 22 03:29 GMT (UK) »
I agree with Neale's transcription, and I add that Isaac CRIBB was of St James Glebe.  This is the then term used by some of the C of E clergy to indicate the locality and distinguish it from the other denominations that may have referred to St James eg the Roman Catholic church in Sydney includes their 'St James' parish within its diocese.

William MAY of St Marks, being the same C of E parish for Sarah (St Marks, Alexandria North), would indicate that William was able to confirm that Sarah was eligible to marry.   

JM
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Offline majm

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Re: George Nicholls
« Reply #44 on: Thursday 24 February 22 03:33 GMT (UK) »
I am sure that Isaac Cribb was of this St James:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_James%27_Church,_Sydney

I am aware that the suburb GLEBE including Forest Lodge was established for C of E, but I will check further on the weekend.  Debra will likely have better grasp on this.  I am relying on grey cells while attending to real life matters for the next couple of days.  Sorry.

JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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