James Hills married Martha Emery - both believed passed away at Gravesend

[rosie99]

Do you have James Jnr Australian death certificate? Any family wills? Anything regarding James and Martha that you can be sure of?

Jo 

We Know from Australian records that the parents of Mixo's James were James Hills and Martha Emery.  This couple married in Northfleet, Kent 14 Dec 1815. James jnr was born in Kent the following year.
James jnr married Louisa Row(e)at Portsea in August 1839 (Father James Hills occ builder)

ADDED
Online passenger lists indicate that James (jnr) and Louisa went to Australia in 1840 on the John Bull

[rosie99]

Just for information on the South Benfleet family
James Hills (Bachelor)
Liddy Coot (Spinster)
Marriage date 21 Jan 1817
Place South Benfleet, Essex
Both of the parish of South Benfleet

[Ladyhawk]

Just for information on the South Benfleet family
James Hills (Bachelor)
Liddy Coot (Spinster)
Marriage date 21 Jan 1817
Place South Benfleet, Essex
Both of the parish of South Benfleet

For info.

Lidia Coot
Baptism    Jan 1798 Hockley, St Peter And St Paul, Essex, England
Father:   John Coot Mother:   Elizabeth

Marriage    24 Dec 1843 South Benfleet, Essex,
Lydia Hills, w, Father:   John Coot, labourer
Spouse:   Samuel Hockley ,w,

1861 Piece:   1083 Folio:   48 Page Number:   13
Samuel Hockley   61
Lydia Hockley   63 Hockley
Philip Martin   14 lodger

Lydia Hockley Death Age:   64
Burial 19 May 1862 Essex

When Sarah of South Benfleet married Edward Coy a witness was Martha Ann Hills, is this why you believe she is your Sarah?

There is also a Martha Ann Hills baptised at South Benfleet in 1826, d/o James and Lydia, James a carpenter.

I agree with Rosie, that the Sarah Hills who married Edward Coy is most likely the daughter of James & Lydia Hills (or an earlier wife) and also related to the Martha Ann Hills (witness at her wedding).

I don’t think that the Martha Ann who witnessed Sarah’s marriage was her mother.

1817 James s/o James & Lydia (carpenter) South Benfleet

Martha Ann d/o James & Lydia 1826 South Benfleet

It helps to focus on what you know to be fact. The baptism of your James and the marriage of his parents. The occupation of both James’s at a certain point of time. Everything else is an assumption.

Could this be the marriage of the Martha Ann Hills that Jo mentions above
 
27 Jan 1850 St Botolphs Northfleet

Martha Ann HILLS 21, servant
Father James occ Carpenter

John COLLARD 22, Horsekeeper
Father Peter, carver

Witnesses Sarah Brooker, William Best
https://cityark.medway.gov.uk/wwwopacx/wwwopac.ashx?command=getcontent&server=files&value=P270-01-21(1).pdf

Martha remarries 30 Nov 1861 Prittlewell

Martha Ann COLLARD, Widow, Res South Benfleet
Father James HILLS, occ Carpenter

Henry MARTIN, B, Res Canvey Island Prittlewell
Father William

1871 Piece:   1667 Folio:   46 Page number:   9
Henry Martin   37   Head
Martha Ann MARTIN 41 South Benfleet Essex   Wife, died age 53 Dec 1883 Rochford, Essex
William Martin   8   Son
May M Martin   6   Daughter

Mary Martha MARTIN mmn HILLS
GRO Reference: 1864  D Quarter in ROCHFORD  Volume 04A  Page 171   

Also these South Benfleet baptisms parents named as James & Lydia

28 Aug 1838 William Hills no occupation
12 Feb 1837 John Hills, father occ carpenter
19 Nov 1833 George Hills ,father occ carpenter
10 Jul 1831 Susannah Hills, father occ carpenter,
burial South Benfleet 21 April 1835 age 3yrs 10m Susannah
18 Jan 1829 George Hills, father occ carpenter
21 Sep 1821 Thomas Hills, father occ Carpenter
21 Jan 1819 Elizabeth Hills, father occ labourer

[Mixo]

Hi all

Re Jomcd967's question re James Junior. I am an elderly pensioner, and can't afford to buy certificates without due reason.

Our Victorian BDM records state James Hills ( Jnr ) as
"Jas Hills,
Death age 78,
Birth date abt 1817,
Death date abt 1895,
Death place Colac Victoria,
Registration date 1895,
Registration place Australia,
Father Jas
Mother Martha Emery,
Registration number 8844."

Also I have dozens of records and personal family photos confirming Jame's youngest daughter Zoe Lillias Hills. my great grandmother, lived at 64 Queen St Colac, that my late father pointed out to me in person in the 1970s, that this was where he grew up in his teens in the 1930s.
So I have no problems if you can't accept James Hills Junior was indeed my 2nd great grandfather, baptized 8 Nov 1816 at St Georges Gravesend, and I agree that Sarah Coy nee Hills may possibly not have his sister.

Yes - I am trying to retain focus on the facts regarding my ancestors, yet with all due respect, a number of "Red Herrings" have propped up from your Rootschat Group.

Best regards with much appreciation for your time and expertise.
Mixo Sydenham
Victoria Australia

[rosie99]

Yes - I am trying to retain focus on the facts regarding my ancestors, yet with all due respect, a number of "Red Herrings" have propped up from your Rootschat Group.

I believe that one 'red herring' which you initially mentioned is Sarah born Essex and we have tried hard to prove that she is linked to your James but there is no evidence.  Although we have not found a baptism for her it is more likely that she is the daughter of James & Lydia.

When Sarah Hills married in July 1846 she stated that her father was James Hills -Deceased.  James Hills the husband of Liddy/Lydia died in 1843 and Lydia remarried so that information would tie in.

Sadly to prove/disprove information we have to put forward suggestions so that we can then investigate them for any possible link.
........

As far as I can see the only information we have that we know is fact regarding your James in the UK is his Portsea marriage, his baptism in Kent and his parents James Hills and Martha Emery's marriage.  ADDED We also have James snr occupation as Builder from James juniors marriage

You have suggested that James Hills senior was born / baptised in Chatham.  I realise that you have a baptism that 'could' be him but at the moment we have no proof that it is so he could also be a red herring. 

As has been mentioned James could have been born anywhere as we have no evidence of his birthplace.  This also applies to Martha. 

I will look later at the Chatham 'Hills' to see if we can progress further with them 

[rosie99]

Also, I have spent quite some time tracing James Snr parentage, as outlined below, and I would really appreciate your comments and feedback, as far as how accurate the following details may be.

               ==============================================

James Hills Snr Baptised 4 May 1788, St Mary's Chatham Kent,
Married Martha ( Ann ? ) Emery 14 Dec 1815, St Botolphs Northfleet Kent, File 1469436 IT 3
Parents of -
James Hills Jnr Bap 8 Nov 1816, Gravesend, died Elliminyt and buried Colac Vic Aus Sep 1895.
Sarah Hills ( to be confirmed ) Born 1824 South Benfleet Essex, married Edward Haffel Coy on 8 Jul 1846 at St Mary's Stoke Newington, and died 6 Aug 1919 at Gravesend, where her 10 children were born.

Only relevant Death record of any James Hill born 1788 located to date, is that of James passing at St Botolphs Hadstock Essex.

Only relevant Death record of any Martha Ann Hills nee Emery born 1791 at Chatham located to date, is that of an "Ann Hills" passing away at Gravesend on 29 Dec 1873.

                    =========================================

Parents of James Hills Snr born 1788 St Mary's Chatham.
Father is noted as James Hills, Bap St Mary's Chatham on 13 Nov 1763
Mother is noted as Elizabeth UNKNOWN

                    =========================================

Parents of James Hills born 1763 at Chatham
Father is noted as William Hills, Bap St Mary's Chatham on 13 Jul 1740
Mother is noted as Elizabeth UNKNOWN

This William Hills is noted as having parents of William and Mary Hills, to be confirmed.

Looking forward to your reply,
Mixo
Via Warragul Vic Aus

There was a James Hills who was baptised at St George, Gravesend in 1778 son of Robert I assume you have already eliminated him.

[Mixo]

Hi all,

Really do appreciate all your time and input regarding my enquiry about James Hills Snr, confirmed to be baptized 4 May 1788 at St Marys Chatham in Kent, and married his wife Martha Emery on 14th Dec 1815, and had their on James Hills Jnr, my confirmed 2nd great grandfather baptized 8th Nob 1816 at St Georges at Gravesend, who married my second great grandmother Louisa Rowe, who married James Junior on 8 Aug 1839 at Portsmouth.

As someone continents away with limited access to my true UK family history records as previously outlined, I must say, I have contacted your Rootschat Group, primarily for record confirmation, and not endless queries and grilling regarding proof and documents of my family history, I cannot provide from my current situation here in Australia.

Of course, as previously mentioned, I would love to hear any of your groups expert feedback regarding my research into

                  =========================================

Parents of James Hills Snr born 1788 St Mary's Chatham.
Father is noted as James Hills, Bap St Mary's Chatham on 13 Nov 1763
Mother is noted as Elizabeth UNKNOWN

                    =========================================

Parents of James Hills born 1763 at Chatham
Father is noted as William Hills, Bap St Mary's Chatham on 13 Jul 1740
Mother is noted as Elizabeth UNKNOWN

This William Hills is noted as having parents of William and Mary Hills, to be confirmed.

Many thanks if we are on the same page, historically wise.

Best regards with many thanks,
Mixo Sydenham
Via Warragul Vic Oz

[rosie99]

I am sorry that you are feeling that you are being grilled.

You have asked us to confirm the information that you have and as far as I can see you have no evidence that James senior was born in Chatham so no proof that the family you are asking for further information on is the correct family.  Without knowing any more information on James snr and Martha after James jnrs birth it is difficult to establish the correct James Hills snr.

You have the details of the 1788 baptism of the James Hills with parents James & Elizabeth.  I cannot see a marriage for this couple in Chatham though there are a couple in the Chatham area
but a few years before James birth
1781 - Rochester to Elizabeth Butler
1783 - Gillingham to Elizabeth Dunmore

Chatham and other Medway parish registers are available to view on this free website
http://medway.adlibhosting.com/results
Familysearch has transcripts for Chatham baptisms, I have not looked for marriages

Sorry that I have not been able to help you further.

[jomcd967]

I’m also based in Australia, and can only avail myself of online records, but how amazing is it that there are so many sites and sources and help and advice that can be found online. And I wouldn’t have achieved half of my tree’s detail and accuracy without following many a red herring, because sometimes the process of elimination is the only way to be sure. Anything else is just a collection of names and dates, with no real meaning, they could be anyone?

I am also sorry that you didn’t feel helped by our efforts. But I totally agree with Rosie99 that you have no evidence beyond that which we have clearly defined in an effort to help you.
 

As far as I can see the only information we have that we know is fact regarding your James in the UK is his Portsea marriage, his baptism in Kent and his parents James Hills and Martha Emery's marriage.  ADDED We also have James snr occupation as Builder from James juniors marriage

   

You seem convinced that James Snr was the James buried 1841 St Botolphs Hadstock Essex….but…….
James Hill, born 1788, baptised 1799 @ St Botolphs Hadstock, s/o Richard and Mary
James Hills married Sarah Pearson 1822 @ St Botolphs Hadstock
James Hills age 53, buried 1841 @ St Botolphs Hadstock

Only relevant Death record of any James Hill born 1788 located to date, is that of James passing at St Botolphs Hadstock Essex.

It only took a couple minutes to find and eliminate most of the following…but some would need further investigation….
James Hills, 35, of Gosport, buried Alverstoke Hampshire, 1822
James Hills, 36, of Bradweel near the Sea Essex, buried 1829
James Hills, 35, of Kelvendon Essex, buried 1836
James Hills, 53, of Leigh, buried 1838 Essex
James Hills, 46, of St Giles, buried 1838 St Giles Colchester Essex
James Hills, 47, of Sth Benfleet, buried 1843
James Hills, 58, of Gt Chesterford, buried 1854
James Hills, 54, of Boughton Under Bean Kent, buried 1840
James Hills, 52, buried 1842, Sholden, St Nicholas Kent
James Hills 57, buried 1845, Patrixbourne Kent
James Hills, 68, buried 1850 Dartford Kent
James Hills, 77, buried 1860, Chiddingstone Kent
James Hills buried 1833 Canterbury Kent
James Hills buried 1828 Gravesend Kent
James Hill, 65, buried 1849 Chatham Kent
James Hill buried 1835 Deptford Kent
James Hill buried 1816 Canterbury Kent

There are also a few census records that you need to rule in/out….
1851 Iden Rye Sussex
James Hall, 64, Journeyman Carpenter, b.Iden Sussex
Martha Hall, 55, b. Cranbrook Kent

1841 Stepney Middlesex
James Hill, 40, Carpenter, nbic
Sarah Hill, 40 + five Hill children

1841 Bridge Kent
James Hills, 50, Ind, bic
Sarah Hills, 55, bic

1841 Chipping Barnet Herts
James Hill, 80, builder, bic
James Hill, 40, builder, bic
Rachel Hill, 40, nbic (1851 shows b. Sevenoaks Kent)

Ann Hills d/o James & Martha, lab, baptised 1834, St Andrew Herts

Or….
Martha Hill, widow, married John Johnson, widower, 1834, Portsea Hampshire

I wanted to reinforce the importance of sometimes (having to be selective due to costs) purchasing b.m.d certificates, Australian certificates in particular have an enormous amount of information for only $20 and an immediate download. Marriage and birth certificates are great as in most cases the information provided is fairly reliable as it straight from the horses mouth, so to speak. Although I learnt the hard way that it always pays to remember that death certificate are second hand, based on what the informant was told or thinks they know. Some children for example, aren’t always told the truth…

So to that end I purchased the Victorian death certificate of James Junior (if you pm me your email address I will forward this to you at no charge) and one interesting piece of information was that this time James senior’s occupation is now listed as Royal Navy Officer…

So…a carpenter in the Navy maybe? That opens a whole new avenue of exploration…

I believe that it’s likely that either/both James and Martha died not long after the birth of James Junior, which would help explain why no obvious siblings have been found …no records other than the baptism of your James show them together…a second marriage for one of them possibly…

Please don’t take any of the above as criticism, it is because we love doing this that we want to help people make discoveries and learn more about their ancestors without ensuring as much as possible that they are on the right path…

Kind regards, Jo