MARY JANE KIRMAN (GOSSIP) HULL

[lizziedrip]

But if you look at the 1871 Census I sent you earlier Thomas's wife was not called Mary Jane it was Eliza.
I believe Thomas was married before. The 1881 Census gives William and Harriet as born in Lincs. The 1871 shows a William A and Harriet also born Lincs and the same dobs.
I am sending you the 1871 Census again to compare with your later ones.

Thomas   Furman  1836  Scandlesby                   Head
Eliza        Furman  1841  North Somercoates      Wife
Emma E   Furman  1865  North Thoresby            Dau
Tom         Furman  1867  North Thoresby            Son
William A Furman  1868  Clee                              Son
Harriet    Furman  1870  Grimsby                        Dau
Because of the names dates and location I think this is your Thomas Kirman. Forget the spelling I have looked at the original and it could be a K not an F.
The ages of William A and Harriet are correct and the location is close. The next child of Thomas was born abt.1875/6 in Hull plenty of time for his wife Eliza to have died and he remarry your Mary Jane.The two older children Emma & Tom could have died or been working by 1881.
I think it would be unusual for there to be 2 Thomas Kirmans born around the same date living in the same area with 2 children of the same name and dob.


You need to get copies of certificates and other documentation to confirm any of this. But I don't think you can discount it either. The similarities are too great.
eg. If you sent for the certificate of Harriet it would confirm her Mother. The marriage certificate would confirm the status of the bride and groom.
I have also found Thomas in 1861 he is unmarried living with his parents and listed as born 1836.

Let me know what you think I hope I haven't confused you.
Lizzie

PS Still no sign of Mary Jane Gossip on 61 or 71.

[ednalou]

Hi Lizzie

Just an update on the above.  On the 1881 census for Grimsby RG11/3267/118/24 Henrietta  G/daugher who was the first born of Thomas Kerman and Mary Jane was living with Edward Richardson and Eliza. They were married December Qtr 1855  9d 337.  So after giving it some thought I wondered whether Mary Jane Gossip had the name Richardson.  Low and behold on the 1861 Census at Southcoates RG9/3580/131/38 there was Mary Jane.  So after giving it some more thought I wondered whether Eliza (wife) could be a Gossip.  I am just presuming but I think this is how Mary Jane got her name Gossip, she took her mothers name after 1861.  Also when you look at the 1861 census Mary Jane had a brother Robert who was 18 and Mary was 8.
So I think Eliza, had Robert and Mary out of wedlock, and thats how she probably got the name Gossip, or could this be their stepmother.
I am getting awfully confused, so I am hoping you might be able to understand it better than I do.
I have only been doing the family tree for a short time, what with the different spellings, ages etc.
Or after reading this yourself do you think I am barking up the wrong tree pardon the expression.

Thank you once again for your help, but I thought I would put you in the picture.

Regards

Gillian


 

[lizziedrip]

On the Yorkshire BMD I found this entry:
RICHARDSON Edward GOSSIP Eliza Sculcoates Register Offices Hull SR/6/11 it was the year of 1855. So I would think Mary Jane was  born out of Wedlock and took Edwards name on the Census.

[ednalou]

Hi Lizzie

Thank you for your reply.  I wondered that.  But surely when they did get married Mary Jane would have taken the name Richardson.  Or do you think she kept her name has
Mary Jane Gossip instead of changing it by deedpole, if there were such a thing.
 I have got Mary Jane on the 1861 but still nothing for the 1851 or the 1871.  If you have either of these census's would you send me the information please.

Thank you once again

Regards

Gillian

[pike]

I was wondering if you know anything about your Grandmothers sister Henrieta/Harrriett
One of the Kirman sisiter's had 2 or 4 children to a John Edward HESELTINE
they where

John Edward KIRMAN 1899  not sure on this one
but
Clarence Heseltine KIRMAN 1906
Gladys Mary KIRMAN 1902
Henrietta Kirman 1892
I an trying to find out if it was Henrietta/Harriet who was there mother

Thanks for any light you can shed on this

1901
403 Wellington Street

 Ambrose T Kirman abt 1890  Hull, Yorkshire, England Son  Clee  Lincolnshire   
 Elsie Kirman abt 1883  Hull, Yorkshire, England Daughter  Clee  Lincolnshire   
 Euretta Kirman abt 1874  Hull, Yorkshire, England Daughter  Clee  Lincolnshire   
 Euretta H Kirman abt 1892  Grimsby, Lincolnshire, England Granddaughter  9 months   
 Eveline Kirman abt 1889  Hull, Yorkshire, England Daughter  Clee  Lincolnshire   
 John E Kirman abt 1899  Grimsby, Lincolnshire, England Grandson  Clee  Lincolnshire   
 Mary J Kirman abt 1847  Hull, Yorkshire, England Wife  Clee  Lincolnshire   
 Millicent Kirman abt 1896  Grimsby, Lincolnshire, England Daughter  Clee  Lincolnshire   
 Thomas Kirman abt 1837  Lincolnshire, England Head  Clee  Lincolnshire   
 Charles H Wrighton abt 1881  Kimbolton Son-in-law  Clee  Lincolnshire   
 Priscilla Wrighton abt 1880  Hull, Yorkshire, England Daughter-in-law

[ednalou]

Hi

I am afraid those names dont ring a bell.  I do know the ones you listed below starting with Ambrose are all one family.

Thomas Kerman I believe was married before to an Eliza they had children starting with Annie E, Tom, William A, then Harriet.   Thomas on the 1871 his last name is coming up as Furman at Scamblesby.

I found out that Mary Jane Gossip was probably born out of wedlock she had a brother who also I believe was born out of wedlock.  There mother and father were Eliza Richardson and Edward Richardson, and Eliza's maiden name was Gossip.

On the 1861 census Mary Jane name is coming up as Richardson.  So I was confused, as I could not find her on the 1861, under the name of gossip.  Then when she married Thomas Kerman she took her mothers maiden name and not Richardson which I would have thought she would have had.  I dont know in those days, when they were born out of wedlock whether later on they could have changed it by deedpole like you can today.

I dont know whether this is any help to you or whether it has confused you more.

I am quite a new lister myself.

I hope this hasn't got you scratching your head, like it did me.  If I can be any more help please let me know.

Regards

Gillian

[pike]

Thank you if you are interested about the Kirman line from
Thomas 1839 born North Thoresby Lincs if you search the net for  "KIRMAN & chris Barrett " she has a lot of info on the family

[pike]

Don't know if this will help but could this be Thomas's marrriage 1st marraige


Primitive Methodist Chapel Victoria Street   22/11/1863   
KIRMAN   Thomas   27 Bachelor Dock Labourer   Church Street,Grimsby   Father  Albert   Farm Labourer   
BRADSHAW Eliza 22   Spinster   Church Street,Grimsby  father   William   Farmer   
Wit:  William HUFTON   Victoria MOGG         

[ednalou]

Hi

Thank you very much for your information I will look into it.
Was the information I sent you of any help or was it a bit confusing.

Regards

Gillian