Seeking Info On James Dalgarno Who Married Margaret Ramsay @ Old Deer 24/09/1784

[Alan of Kaslo]

Hello.

I had posted in the post below this one which is also about Dalgarno of Aberdeenshire but I didn't want to hijack the thread with a similar but different question...

In my documents I have my X4 Grandfather James Dalgarno being married to Margaret Ramsay. They married in Old Deer 24/09/1784 (document attached). Their son James was born  15/11/1787 and died in 1863. His death cert lists his parents same as above. 

James the son married Sophia Crookshank 27/09/1817. One of their sons is named George Ramsay Dalgarno ... which was my first clue confirming that the mother was Margaret Ramsay (later the death cert of James 1874 also confirmed this). My Grandmother is the sister of George Ramsay Dalgarno and her name is Margaret.

The confusion starts with who is the parents of James Dalgarno sr. who is the father of James that married Sophia Crookshank (my Grandmother Margaret's parents)... There are many Dalgarnos of various spellings in the area. The other sites don't help much with some saying he was born in 1757 , some say 1762, 1767 etc etc. 

Many sites list James Dalgarno sr.'s parents as William Dalgarno (many last-name spellings) and Margaret Sangster and have him born 08/11/1757.  I had already looked up that birth on SP and it says the father is John Dalgarno and the mother Margaret Sangster. So I look up a wedding for a William Dalgarno and Margaret Sangster and cannot find one... There is a wedding for a John Dalgarno and a Margaret Sangster ... also in Old Deer where the birth was, earlier in the same year 1757.

So I'm trying to tease the truth out of all the various dates and names. James is the only child I can find for John and Margaret. There are a few other births around the area (but not in Old Deer) for a John Dalgarno (no mother listed). Under William Dalgarno and Margaret Sangster there are several births but no James ...and not in Old Deer but in New Deer. One of the births is a MARGARET DALGARDON  born to William 16/04/1758 right beside James mentioned above 08/11/1757 born to John Dalgarno and the difference in days is barely enough to be feasible to be the same father (350 days i think it was).

Sorry for the drawn out post... I do have some questions. Can anyone tell me:

- Who is the proper parents of James Dalgarno who married Margaret (Mary) Ramsay 24/09/1784
- What is his actual birth date if not 08/11/1757
- Is his father John Dalgarno as the documents says or William Dalgarno as many say on other sites
- Did John Dalgarno marry Margaret Sangster as the document says or did William marry her
- Are John (Old Deer) and William Dalgarno (New Deer) the same person

It's so frustrating seeing all the info laid out on other sites but James marries a Jane Taylor and not Margaret Ramsay, his father is William and not John but many facts are common between the various trees.

Can anyone help me with any insights or tips on how I can figure out any of the above? I would be very thankful!

Cheers

[Alan of Kaslo]

Here's the wedding of James Dalgarno and Margaret Ramsay 24/09/1784.

Note the other James Dalgarno who married the Wildgoose lass a month earlier...

[Alan of Kaslo]

I did post this in the Dalgarno thread below mine ...which I am trying not to derail/hijack so I will post it here instead. It contains the crux of my confusion.

1. John DALGARNO, son of John DALGARNO and Margaret BRYMER, was born in 1726 in , , Aberdeenshire, Scotland1 and died on March 3, 1819 in , , Aberdeenshire, Scotland1,2 aged 93.

John married Margaret SANGSTER, daughter of John SANGSTER and Christan BRUCE, on January 18, 1757 in Old Deer, , Aberdeen, Scotland 1.,2 Margaret was christened on July 27, 1741 in Peterhead, , Aberdeen, Scotland2 and died on January 9, 1820 in Peterhead, , Aberdeen, Scotland2 aged 78.

Children from this marriage were:

+ 2 M    i. James DALGARNO was born on November 8, 1757 in Old Deer, , Aberdeen, Scotland1,2 and died on January 5, 1845 in Slains, , Aberdeen, Scotland2 aged 87.

   3 F    ii. Margaret DALGARNO was born in April 1758 in , New Deer Parish, Aberdeen, Scotland.

+ 4 M    iii. Andrew DALGARNO was born about 1762 in Old Deer, , Aberdeen, Scotland.

   5 F    iv. Marjory DALGARNO .

Marjory married Alexander LOW.

   6 M    v. George DALGARNO was born in November 1765 in , New Deer Parish, Aberdeen, Scotland.3

   7 M    vi. John DALGARNO was born about 1767 in , , Aberdeenshire, Scotland3 and died on March 30, 1819 in , Longside Parish, Aberdeen, Scotland3 aged about 52.

John married Katherne CARLE on September 7, 1797 in , Longside Parish, Aberdeen, Scotland.3 Katherne was born in October 1776 in , Longside Parish, Aberdeen, Scotland.3

Here they list John Dalgarno as James's father and have him married to Margaret Sangster. They have James listed as born Old Deer 1757 ....it all looks good with lots of extra info. But then you click on James and it says:

2. James DALGARNO (John1) was born on November 8, 1757 in Old Deer, , Aberdeen, Scotland1,2 and died on January 5, 1845 in Slains, , Aberdeen, Scotland2 aged 87.

James married Jean TAYLOR on January 25, 1781 in Old Deer, , Aberdeen, Scotland.1 Jean was born about 1762 in , , Aberdeenshire, Scotland3 and died in June 1830 in , , Aberdeenshire, Scotland3 aged about 68.

No mention of marrying Margaret Ramsay...which I know is the case.

[Alan of Kaslo]

Regarding me thinking James Dalgarno had married a lass named Hay ... it was a crossed wire from something I read on myheritage

James (Jas) Dalgarno, 1757 - 1845
James (Jas) Dalgarno was born on month day 1757, at birth place , to John Dalgarno and Margaret Dalgarno (born Sangster) .
John was born on September 25 1728, in Kirkton of Slains, Aberdeenshire, Scotland.
Margaret was born on January 26 1725, in New Deer Aberdeen Scotland.
James had 4 siblings: Andrew Dalgarno and 3 other siblings .
James married Margaret Dalgarno (born Ramsey) on month day 1784, at age 26 at marriage place .
Margaret was born on June 20 1748, in Old Deer, Aberdeen, Scotland.
They had 3 children: George Dalgarno and 2 other children .
James then married Helen Dalgarno (born Hay) on month day 1801, at age 43.
Helen was born on 1769, in Lonmay, Aberdeen, Scotland.
They had 3 sons: Joseph Dalgarno and 2 other children .
James passed away on month day 1845, at age 87 at death place .
He was buried on date , at burial place .

In this version he never marries a Jane Taylor but instead marries Helen Hay after Margaret Ramsay passes before 1801. Ancestry trees have all kinds of varying names and dates for James and who he marries.

Again ... any insights, info, tips , comments appreciated. Thank you.

[Forfarian]

Best tip is to forget everything you find in an online tree or on commercial web sites like MyHeritage and Ancestry. As you have discovered, they don't all say the same thing, therefore at least some of them are wrong and without documentary evidence you have no way of knowing which are right and which are wrong.

However it is seriously easy to show that your James Dalgarno was not the one who married Jane Taylor

Timeline from the indexes to the original documents at Scotland's People
1781 James Dalgarno marries Margaret Gall in New Deer
1784 James D marries Margaret Ramsay in Old Deer
1785 Baptism of May, daughter of James D and Margaret Ramsay in Old Deer
1787 Baptism of James, son of James D and Margaret Ramsay in Old Deer
1788 James D marries Jean Taylor in Strichen
1790 Baptism of George, son of James D and Margaret Ramsay in Old Deer
1792 Baptism of Elizabeth, daughter of James D and Jane Taylor in Longside
1794 Baptism of George, son of of James D and Jane Taylor in Longside
1856 Death of George Dalgarno, mother's maiden surname Ramsay
1863 Death of James Dalgarno, mother's maiden surname Ramsay

As James D and Jane Taylor were married before the birth of James Dalgarno and Margaret Ramsay's youngest child, these are two different James Dalgarnos.

Also JD and Margaret Ramsay's son George outlived JD and Jane Taylor's son George.

[Forfarian]

Who, then, is the James D who married Margaret Ramsay? (I wouldn't worry too much about her being shown as Mary on his death certificate. Sometimes Margaret is abbreviated to Marg and then gets confused with Mary.)

He was married in 1784, so he cannot have been born later than 1770, and it is unlikely that he was born after 1760 or so, because (according to his son James' death certificate) he was a blacksmith. That means he had served an apprenticeship, and basically an apprentice can't afford to support a wife so could not marry until he was fully qualified and earning. (What does George's death certificate say his father's occupation was?)

(Noting that James and Margaret named their first son James, I'd expect James' father's name to be James. I'd expect Margaret's parents to be George and Marjory/May. But that's not set in stone.)

There are two recorded baptisms of James Dalgarnos in eastern Aberdeenshire before 1770
Son of John Dalgarno and Margaret Sangster, baptised 1757 in Old Deer
Son of William Dalgarno, baptised 1759 in New Deer

However there are no fewer than five marriages of James Dalgarnos in that area between 1780 and 1795. Therefore there must be more than two James Dalgarnos. Therefore there must be one or more James Dalgarnos missing from the registers of baptism. Therefore you cannot assume that either of these is the one who married Margaret Ramsay.

The first thing I'd do is look at the originals of all the various Dalgarno baptisms, and note things like the parents' residence, father's occupation and the names of any witnesses if they are listed. If, for instance, Helen Hay's husband was a shoemaker, that would be fairly strong evidence against him being Margaret Ramsay's widower, who was a blacksmith.

Then I'd have a good rake in the indexes to gravestones at http://www.anesfhs.org.uk/databank/miindex/miindex.php and see what they turn up. If necessary get hold of the full inscriptions to find out what the relationships of the various people are to one another. They might be on FindAGrave or BillionGraves, or you might need to get the inscription from one of the published booklets.

I'd also look at all the Dalgarnos listed in the census (use FreeCEN https://freecen1.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl because it's much more accurate than the transcriptions on Ancestry) and compare that information with everything else. It's a bit late, obviously, to include your James D, but there could be clues to earlier generations.

[Alan of Kaslo]

Forfarian... thank you very much for the thoughtful reply. It helps a lot.

I've gone on SP and bookmarked all the relevant searches which I will purchase asap. Will report back any findings.

I believe this might be James Dalgarno sr.'s death cert. The math works out to 1757 ... which seems to be a good likelihood  to be be his birth date. Perhaps it will say something about location or occupation. I've had mixed luck with info on older pre 1855 docs...sometimes its a gold mine and often there is barely more then a name and an age. We shall see.

DALGARDNE JAMES
80
M
12/01/1837
241/
30 252
Strichen

Not sure of course if the above is him for sure. Will check when I can.

Thanks again!

[Forfarian]

It's possible, but be careful you don't get yourself into a circular discussion.

If he was 80 when he died on 12 January 1837, he was more likely born in 1756 because he hadn't had time to have a birthday yet in 1757 - or maybe the original says 'In his 80th year' which would mean that he was still only 79, not yet 80. And of course there's no guarantee that his age is accurate, irrespective of how it is recorded. 

Ask yourself why, if your man lived all his adult life in Old Deer, he died in Strichen?

I'm amazed at the variants of the name - I'm using Dalg*r* in searches to try to pick them all up.

Do you have a reliable source for a death of Margaret Ramsay, or did someone just dream up the idea that her widower married Helen Hay?

[Alan of Kaslo]

Good point about the marriage to the Hay...could easily be one of the many other James D's. I have pretty much given up on trusting other peoples trees or listings that pop up on MH etc. 

Margaret Ramsay's death I have not found yet... there are several listed with no parents , so its hard to say. I was mostly looking in Old Deer area.

Re: Strichen death for James D , I bet you're right. We already know there was several otherJames D's about.

Yes there are many variations on Dalgarno spellings. Lately I've been using "begins with" Dalga_____. Seems to catch a lot of them, including Dalgarden etc.

I'll keep at it and chime back in.

Thanks