New South Wales birth - Frank STUART

[wivenhoe]

What certificates do you have for BDM events for the people named so far, and relevant to your research. I think we can account for these, so far -

NSW BDM
1230/1888 STUART Frederick W parents Frederick / Annie   @  Sydney  (birth) reply # 3

Sydney, Australia, Anglican Parish Registers, 1814-2011
STUART Frederick Stuart b. 25 Jan 1896 bapt 8 Apr 1896 St Mark Darling Point
parents Frederick STUART, labourer, Elizabeth  Bowes Terrace Cameron Street
(no birth to see on NSW BDM Index?)

8162/1901 STUART Maud  marr.  PLUMMER William E  @  Sydney  (marriage)
(see Ancestry  Sydney, Australia, Anglican Parish Registers, 1814-2011 and my reply #11

2655/1907  PLUMMER Maud parents Frederick G / Elizabeth A  @ Rockdale (death)

11984/1912 TOWNSEND Frederick parents John / Augusta  @ Paddington (death) reply # 25

4550/1930  STUART Frank  parents Frederick G / Elizabeth   @ Waverley (death) reply # 32

Can you please list everything on these certificates that you have -
1230/1888 STUART Frederick W parents Frederick / Annie   @  Sydney

2655/1907  PLUMMER Maud parents Frederick G / Elizabeth A  @ Rockdale (death)
 

Can you please identify your certificates as being an image of a handwritten document, or, a typed transcription.

The document with occupation "hosiery manufacturer" - is this a transcription?

I would be surprised to see someone described as hosiery manufacturer unless they owned a factory.

[majm]

Why marry in 1908 ... To make sure you have an NSW official record to submit to claim the Old Age Pension.  (The official NSW record included the then ages of both the bride and the groom, so a certified copy of the official record gives the full names, including nee name, the then usual addresses, and the then ages of the bride and groom, plus information about their own origins, and their parents too). 

https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/age-and-invalid-pensions

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14940513  SMH  6 June 1908
As an aside .... I notice that Coastal Defence got £250,000 and Invalid & Old Age Pension got THREE times that ! ... £750,000.   

JM
 

[CarlyMaree11]

Yes the information I have has come from typed transcriptions.  I've also ordered the 1908 marriage certificate so when that comes through I will share that Information.

1907/2655

Name: Maud Plummer
D.O.D: 14 Mar 1907
Place: Terry St Arncliffe
Sex: female
Age: 24

Place of birth: Woolloomooloo Sydney
Fathers name: Frederick Gately Stuart
Fathers occupation: Commercial traveller
Mothers name: Elizabeth Anne Turner (altered from Annie Turner)

Place of marriage: Darlinghurst, Sydney
Age at marriage: 19
Name of spouse: William Edward Plummer
Children of marriage: George F 4, Edward K 2 months, living, none deceased

Informant: W E Plummer, husband, Terry St Arncliffe

Cause of Death:
1. Pthisis Pulmonaris
2. Heart Failure
Length of Illness:
1. 12 months
2. 1 hour
Medical Attendant: Ernest A Woodward
Date last seen: 13 Mar 1907


Date if burial: 15 Mar 1907
Place of burial: Church of England cemetary Sutherland
Minister of religion: H R A Wilson, Anglican
Undertaker: Charles Kinsella
Witness: M Hardy, P Sommer

Registered: 14 Mar 1907 - Rockdale

[wivenhoe]

Your reply #3 suggests that you have this death certificate -

18908/1932  STUART Elizabeth A parents  John (78 yrs North Sydney)
@  North Sydney      (26 Sep)

Can you list everything on this certificate.

[CarlyMaree11]

18908/1932

Name: Elizabeth Ann Stuart
D.O.D: 26 Sep 1932
Place: 83 Berry St, Municipality of North Sydney
Occupation: old age pensioner
Sex: Female
Age: 78

Place of Birth: Tavistock, England
Time in Aust Colonies: NSW 50 years

Fathers Name: John Turner
Fathers Occupation: (none recorded)
Mothers Name: (none recorded)

Place of Marriage: England
Age at Marriage: about 27
Name of Spouse: Frederick Gately Stuart

Children of Marriage: Frederick W 44, Living; 1 Male, 1 Female deceased

Informant: F W Stuart, Son, 81 Berry St North Sydney

Cause of Death: Chronic Myocarditis, Chronic Brights Disease
Medical Attendant: W B Studdy
Date Last Seen: 26 Sep 1932


Date of Burial: 27 Sep 1932
Place of Burial: Church of England Cemetary Rookwood
Minister & Religion: J F Chapple Church of England
Undertaker: A E Secombe, Employed by Motor Funerals Ltd

Witnesses: A B Kennedy, Max B Walker

Registered: 1 Oct 1932- North Sydney

[sparrett]

The certificate for the death of Elizabeth Ann STUART where her son is the informant is interesting especially in the date and place of her marriage.

Either young Frederick, in his passing on of the information for the death registration, believed the story about the English marriage which placed the births of his siblings and himself inside the marriage.
OR
It was a family secret faithfully preserved to the grave!

I tend to think the former, the children were lied to.

They were surnamed STUART. They believed their parents were married at the time of their births and they were not told of the 1908 Australian event.
Sue

ADDING
Also indication that Elizabeth arrived 1882

[CarlyMaree11]

So Frank would have been born in England then, not NSW, even though on all his gaol records it says native of NSW? I guess it was probably very easy back then to just say you were born wherever, right?

I couldn't seem to find the birth record of 'Frederick' (frank) Townsend in England, I found a few others but none with an Elizabeth/Annie Turner as mother.

[sparrett]

I couldn't seem to find the birth record of 'Frederick' (frank) Townsend in England, I found a few others but none with an Elizabeth/Annie Turner as mother.

It is there as previously provided by wivenhoe.
On freeBMD too.

Sue

[majm]

There is every chance that Frank thought he was born in NS

So Frank would have been born in England then, not NSW, even though on all his gaol records it says native of NSW? I guess it was probably very easy back then to just say you were born wherever, right?

 

Yes, and it was very easy back then to believe that your parents were married in England and that you were born after they had arrived in NSW.   When he provides information to the police about himself he is most likely believing that he is being truthful, as the penalty for perjury could include additional time and hard labour too.  That system of trust remained throughout NSW until perhaps the late 1980s... when Quintex collapsed and its principal fled Australia on a false passport and associated papers.  See:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qintex and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Skase
That prompted the introduction of the 100 points needed for ID purposes.

JM