New South Wales birth - Frank STUART

[CarlyMaree11]

I'm currently searching for a record of my great great grandfathers birth. From what I have researched he was born in Sydney nsw 1881.  On his death certificate it has his mother as Elizabeth Anne Turner and father is Frederick Gately stuart, who was born Frederick Gately Townsend. I'm not sure about the name change on his behalf either. However, on fredricks death certificate Frank stuart is not listed as a son of his, only his children from his first marriage in England. 

 From what I have found, Frederick and Elizabeth were married in syd 1908, several years after Franks birth and his sister Maud (1882) and brother Frederick (1888) I'm so confused! On Fredericks birth certificate it says his father was Frederick gately stuart but his mother was Annie Turner - when I looked into this I assumed Elizabeth was going by Annie ( again, not sure why the name change) as she was listed at the address as Elizabeth on one record and Annie on another.  It also stated they were married in England  roughly around 1880 but I can't find any such record, only the marriage in 1908.

Really I'm after more evidence that yes they were definitely his parents which a birth certificate would verify, but I'm also curious why Frank wasn't on Fredericks death certificate, and why Frederick changed his name from Townsend to Stuart to begin with ( i know stuart was his mother's maiden name)

Sorry I hope that makes sense it's been a massive rabbit hole!

[jorose]

Hi Carly,

It sounds like Frederick and Elizabeth Anne / Annie were for whatever reason unable or didn't manage to marry in England. You mention a "first marriage in England" so perhaps they were unable to legally marry.

I can't find "Frederick Gately Townsend" in England. There is a Frederick Townsend born in about 1840 in Cornwall, who was married to an Elizabeth by the 1871 census.

https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/ has some references for a Frederick that might be of interest

Published: Tuesday 12 October 1880
Newspaper: Western Morning News
 - bankruptcy of Frederick Townsend, draper, grocer, general dealer

Published: Saturday 06 November 1880
Newspaper: Cornish & Devon Post
 - Elizabeth Townsend takes out a protection order against Frederick her husband, who had left her without cause.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27X-WPZC
 - Elizabeth living "married" in Cornwall.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WH73-NW2

So probably Frederick took the name Stuart to avoid his creditors and his wife back in England. Perhaps he ran off with Annie Turner, or met her in Sydney?

I would look at -
The birth record for brother Frederick, 1888 - any indication of "previous children of marriage"?
The 1908 marriage - what are the details of Annie / Elizabeth Annie?
The death of Frederick - who gave the information? Were all of Frank, Maud, and Frederick left off? Very unusual in a case like this to report the children of the first marriage...

See if you can put together a timeline of when Frederick got to Sydney and what Annie/Elizabeth Turner was doing in her earlier years - when did they meet? Perhaps Frank was from a previous relationship of Annies?

[majm]

Hi,

Welcome to the best family history forum.

I have some questions.....

On that 1888 birth cert for  Frederick, from that document what does that document actually record :
  for the informant .... their name, address, relationship....
  for the older siblings ....both those then alive and any who were already deceased
  what date of birth for baby
  what name, age, occupation for baby's father
  what name, maiden name, age for baby's mother
  when and where married.

Do not be surprised if some of those responses differ from other official records you may have.  In that era the information was provided verbally ... so it depended on how the question was asked, how busy the questioner was,  who was answering the questions, was baby present or not (a new baby present when registering a birth can be a huge distraction at a busy shop front style counter ! )

Lots of questions,  but hopefully these can help you unravel some confusion.  I see nothing wrong with the surname change,  not unusual in that era in NSW. 

JM.

I'm currently searching for a record of my great great grandfathers birth. From what I have researched he was born in Sydney nsw 1881.  On his death certificate it has his mother as Elizabeth Anne Turner and father is Frederick Gately stuart, who was born Frederick Gately Townsend. I'm not sure about the name change on his behalf either. However, on fredricks death certificate Frank stuart is not listed as a son of his, only his children from his first marriage in England. 

 From what I have found, Frederick and Elizabeth were married in syd 1908, several years after Franks birth and his sister Maud (1882) and brother Frederick (1888) I'm so confused! On Fredericks birth certificate it says his father was Frederick gately stuart but his mother was Annie Turner - when I looked into this I assumed Elizabeth was going by Annie ( again, not sure why the name change) as she was listed at the address as Elizabeth on one record and Annie on another.  It also stated they were married in England  roughly around 1880 but I can't find any such record, only the marriage in 1908.

Really I'm after more evidence that yes they were definitely his parents which a birth certificate would verify, but I'm also curious why Frank wasn't on Fredericks death certificate, and why Frederick changed his name from Townsend to Stuart to begin with ( i know stuart was his mother's maiden name)

Sorry I hope that makes sense it's been a massive rabbit hole!

[CarlyMaree11]

Hi, thanks so much for your replies!

From what i can tell that is my Frederick re: bankruptcy and wife desertion of Elizabeth. He married an Elizabeth Jackman in England and they had I think 5-6 children. These children are on his death certificate however under the marriage to Elizabeth Anne Turner it says no issue. Frank stuart was however the informant on Fredericks death certificate.

I am struggling to find much info on Frederick when he changed to Stuart, can't seem to find his passage over to Australia ect. Elizabeth Turner is proving to be much the same, her death certificate states only a father's name but that she was born in England too.

Now with Fredericks birth record;
- informant was Annie Stuart, mother, at 160 Palmer Street, Sydney.
- siblings it just has previous issue (under marriage details) 2 boys 1 girl living. That's it.
- d.o.b is 17th March 1888
- father Frederick Stuart, age 48, occupation Hosiery manufacturer. Born England.
- mother Annie Turner, age 34. Born England.
- marriage states 1st May 1880, England.

Thanks so much for the help I really appreciate it

[wivenhoe]

Is this your family?

BDM NSW
1230/1888   STUART Frederick W   parents Frederick / Annie     @  Sydney

marriage
8162/1901 PLUMMER  William E  marr.  STUART Maud   @  Sydney

death
11984/1912  STUART Frederick G parents  John / Augusta   @  Paddington  (4 Jun)

14550/1930  STUART Frank  parents Frederick G / Elizabeth   @ Waverley

18908/1932  STUART Elizabeth A parents  John (78 yrs North Sydney) 
@  North Sydney      (26 Sep)

[wivenhoe]

14550/1930  STUART Frank  parents Frederick G / Elizabeth   @ Waverley

" On his death certificate it has his mother as Elizabeth Anne TURNER and father is Frederick Gately STUART who was born Frederick Gately TOWNSEND."

Are you seeing, on the 1930 death certificate, that father Frederick is identified with two family names, STUART and TOWNSEND?

Who is the informant on this death certificate?

[CarlyMaree11]

Yes, that's my family 

Yes, on Fredericks death certificate he is identified as both surnames. it has informant as Elizabeth A Stuart

[majm]

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/16718704  SMH 1 Oct 1930. 
Frank STUART aged 49, died at his home. Family members named there.

14550/1930  STUART Frank  parents Frederick G / Elizabeth   @ Waverley

I confirm the Date of Death as 29 September, 1930.

JM
   

[CarlyMaree11]

I've also just received the death certificate for Maud, it has father as Frederick Stuart, mother as Elizabeth Ann Turner (altered from Annie Stuart) and she was born in wooloomooloo 1882.