Author Topic: Kearney – Perth Amboy & Norfolk Virginia 1720-1852 – Belfast 1875  (Read 911 times)

Offline elmer64

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 10
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Kearney – Perth Amboy & Norfolk Virginia 1720-1852 – Belfast 1875
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 18 August 21 00:47 BST (UK) »
As a general point regarding ancestors literacy:-

Where there exist images of church records, particularly marriages, the parties generally (with some exceptions) signed the register themselves. These records may help to assess the individuals literacy.

Online aghadowey

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 52,653
    • View Profile
Re: Kearney – Perth Amboy & Norfolk Virginia 1720-1852 – Belfast 1875
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 18 August 21 09:05 BST (UK) »
As I mentioned earlier, I found 11 children of Patrick O'Neill & Elizabeth Martin (all registered in Belfast district)- the ones missing from your list are (another) Catherine, Patrick & Christina. I didn't check each one for deaths so more could have died in infancy or as children. Here's the complete list so far-
1. Catherine (12 Nov.1874 at 57 Hanna St.-10 Aug.1875)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1874/03129/2147345.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1875/020616/7233342.pdf
2. Charles (9 May 1876 Belfast-aft.1891)
3. Elizabeth (19 Dec.1877 at New Andrew St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1877/02990/2095780.pdf (informant- Catherine O’Neill)
4. Annie (5 June 1880 at 20 Andrew St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1880/02876/2053891.pdf
5. Catherine (27 Aug.1882 at Andrew St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1882/02774/2018378.pdf
6. John (6 Apr.1884 at 29 Andrew St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1884/02694/1992136.pdf
7. Patrick (2 Feb.1886 at 47 New Dock St.-6 Sept.1886 at 43 New Dock St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02617/1966030.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1886/06243/4787409.pdf
8. Sarah (19 May 1887 at 57 New Dock St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1887/02563/1947867.pdf
9. Christina (27 Dec.1888 at 57 New Dock St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/cert_amends/cert_1889/1923116a.pdf
10. Stanislaus Patrick (24 Feb.1891 at 57 New Dock St.-1891)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1891/02402/1895770.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1891/06065/4729219.pdf

I also noticed that Elizabeth signed by her mark on the registrations which points to possible illiteracy or at least limited education. If you are judging that by the fact that most others on the page also did so you also need to look at occupations listed. Since most were labourers, etc. it's not at all surprising to find few were able to sign their name. In a similar period (and even at the start of registration of births & deaths in 1864) for my own rural area most labourers and working class people signed their own names.
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Online aghadowey

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 52,653
    • View Profile
Re: Kearney – Perth Amboy & Norfolk Virginia 1720-1852 – Belfast 1875
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 18 August 21 11:08 BST (UK) »
Let me introduce you to Bernard O'Neill  :)

Bernard O’Neill (c1850-bef.1907) m.(1875 St. Patrick’s) Isabella “Bella” McGurk (c1857-1907 Belfast)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1875/11217/8111767.pdf  (groom- 57 Dock St., father Charles O’Neill dead)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1907/05516/4545958.pdf (from 2 California St., widow of Bernard O’Neill engine driver, informant- son Charles)
1. Charles O’Neill (19 Jan.1877 at 18 New St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1877/03026/2108948.pdf (father Barrnet O’Neill)
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633201#page/26/mode/1up (New St., Ann O’Neill one of the spons.)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Duncairn_Ward/Copperfield_Street/957499/ 
1907- 48 York Rd.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Duncairn/York_Road/143158/ (with wife & children)
2. Isabella O’Neill (12 Aug.1879 at 3 Orchard St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1879/02910/2066213.pdf
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633201#page/44/mode/1up

More to add to this but found the baptisms for the children Charles & Isabella when searching baptism register for St. Joseph's for children of Patrick O'Neill & Elizabeth Martin. Only found 3 baptisms for their children so others probably baptised at another church-
Baptisms St. Joseph’s, Belfast-
Charles Joseph O’Neill (mother Lizzie Martin)- see note re: marriage on right side of page
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633201#page/22/mode/1up
Elizabeth O’Neill
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633201#page/34/mode/1up (spons. Catherine O’Neill)
Ann O’Neill
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633201#page/52/mode/1up
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Online aghadowey

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 52,653
    • View Profile
Re: Kearney – Perth Amboy & Norfolk Virginia 1720-1852 – Belfast 1875
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday 18 August 21 20:21 BST (UK) »
Had a look at more directories for Bernard O'Neill & family.

Possible death for Bernard which I could find in Irish Genealogy database either by name search or page search-
? Bernard O’Neill age 39 died 21 Apr.1892 Belfast dist. (from GRONI’s database)

https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/opqcomplete1880.htm (not there 1890 or 1894)
ORCHARD STREET Canning Street to Bentinck Street- 3. O'Neill, Bern., engine driver
Couldn’t find Bernard in 1890 directory

Daughter Isabella born 1879 at 3 Orchard St. Although it nearby I checked & there doesn't seem ro be a connection to Bernard-
1907 directory- Constantine O’Neill at 3 California St. (checked marriage record but his father not Bernard)

Couldn't find Bernard's wife/widow in 1901 census. There is this Isabella O'Neill-
JENNYMOUNT STREET Off North Derby Street 20. O'Neill, Isabella
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/hijkcomplete1894.htm
1890 (off York Rd.)- not at this address
Not in Valuations 1882-1896

Note: searched for that address after finding this death-
Annie c1883-1893 brother Charles (20 Jennymount St.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1893/05988/4703363.pdf
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!


Offline candotout

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 5
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Kearney – Perth Amboy & Norfolk Virginia 1720-1852 – Belfast 1875
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday 18 August 21 23:20 BST (UK) »
Many thanks to Aghadowey for the incredibly effective & diligent researches.

Wow!!

We suspect that you have certain attributes which we lack:-
    • a lightening fast broadband connection
    • basic human intelligence
    • perhaps a very smart internet trawling program?

It is indeed surprising to note that Elizabeth Ellen Martin made “her mark X” for the registrations of her first child’s (Catherine 1874-75) birth and death (uniquely those 2 events).

Later, she signed (although many registrations were done by a Mary McLaughlin of 17 New Dock Street – apparently a local midwife; we found her on over 20 birth registrations in the area).

Patrick O’Neill, the labourer, was literate (census returns, marriage record with Sarah Lyttle & registration of Stanislaus’ death). He was reputedly harshly domineering and said to have posted written ‘rules of behaviour’ for his family (a trend his own son, John, later continued with Victorian rigour).

Interesting as all that may be, it does not explain the enigma of Elizabeth Ellen Martin (nee Kearney or Kearny or Carney etc) from Norfolk VA?. Perhaps it was not her at all? The family may have built a myth. Back in 1891, they did not have internet to help construct a story, just scraps of mouse-chewed paper!

We’ve been through the Kearney museum in Perth Amboy (Paul Wong, curator), the church in Norfolk VA and the US Navy archives. Lot’s of great ‘possible stories’, rather a shortage of facts.

Did we shout "Don't give up the ship" then sink with it, or keep firing until the water reached the gunwales, did we charge with Napoleon in France and Italy, did we massacre our comrades in the civil war, or just murder Amer-Indians? We’ll probably never know the truth… it would still be nice to show that we really do own 25% of the New York Stock Exchange thanks to Elizabeth Ellen. There’s a 10% reward to the first RootsChatter who can show that (payable in arrears after the expiry of the statute of limitations)!


Online aghadowey

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 52,653
    • View Profile
Re: Kearney – Perth Amboy & Norfolk Virginia 1720-1852 – Belfast 1875
« Reply #14 on: Thursday 19 August 21 09:49 BST (UK) »
There seem to be two of you researching this family- hopefully you've compared notes and are sharing your research in order to solve these mysteries.

Quote
We suspect that you have certain attributes which we lack:- ...

You forgot decades of researching  ;D

As I said earlier, nowhere have I found Elizabeth (Martin) O'Neill using the middle name of Ellen, or indeed any other middle name. The only variation was just 1, I think, registration showing her as Lizzie.

Unfortunately we are still missing vital evidence-
1) marriage certificate of Patrick O'Neill & Elizabeth Martin- in U.S. or Ireland? Irish vital records have been searched without a result but perhaps priest neglected to send the record to GRO and it might appear in church register?
2) record of travel from U.S. to Ireland or even U.K. Unfortunately too early for online passenger manifests into U.K.

Going back to U.S. records- do you have Elizabeth Ellen Martin with parents in 1871 census?
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline amdg

  • RootsChat Pioneer
  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Kearney – Perth Amboy & Norfolk Virginia 1720-1852 – Belfast 1875
« Reply #15 on: Monday 27 March 23 13:06 BST (UK) »
just stumbled on this thread, and fascinating it is too -- a few dubious assertions notwithstanding -- e.g. references to Patrick O'Neill's ''harsh discipline'' and his son John carrying on that with ''Victorian rigour'' -- I was left wondering as to the sources for these statements. That aside, the quality of the research is amazing, and all credit to those who have engaged in it.
My own research has come up with broadly similar results, though there are divergences. Still, that's in the nature of research, I think? For what it's worth it is alleged that when Elizabeth Martin came to Belfast she stayed with relatives on the Ormeau Road. At that stage she'd have been around 11 years old, and apparently was sent to Ireland to avoid the ravages of the American Civil War of 1861-1865. Again, one finds oneself in the minefield of ''family lore.''