Author Topic: Amazing info on marriages in early 1800s giving insight into migration to London  (Read 2202 times)

Offline mazi

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Re: Amazing info on marriages in early 1800s giving insight into migration to London
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 23 June 21 19:15 BST (UK) »
I wonder if the Welsh marriages were connected to the huge numbers of sheep and their drovers that went from wales to London every year.

If you are one of a family of seven or eight there is nothing for you in wales, but the drovers return with tales of the streets of London paved with gold, so you travel with them to seek your fortune.

Mike







I know the route the drovers took from North Wales - leaving the A5 near Brownhills (now Chester Road) and through Kenilworth and Southam (still called the Welsh Road) to Buckingham and then  various routes depending on destination - but I dont think Cardiganshire drovers would take or join this route? Any ideas.

I have to say that Lewisham seems an odd final destination for them but I hardly know the area so can't say.
 


Yes, past my front door and rest for the night at the pub next door.  :)


Rhyadr, Llandrindod, kington then Hereford onwards.

Google “George Jarvis charity” for one example of a young man joining the drovers.

Mike


Added, possibly Lewisham as word spread that there was a friendly maybe welsh speaking rector there

Offline melba_schmelba

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Re: Amazing info on marriages in early 1800s giving insight into migration to London
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 23 June 21 22:03 BST (UK) »
I was interested that almost all the Welsh people were from Cardiganshire (including Lampeter, county not given) - a distant and not very populous county. Could there be some special connection to Lewisham other than the Greenwich connection mentioned? Before the railways this was a difficult journey whether by land or sea.

Although there are three marriages between Cardiganshire couples, others marry people from elsewhere. And the couples from the county aer not from places near each other - Tresilan is a fair way from Llanbadarnfawr, and the best I can do with Kilgenny is either Kilgetty, Pembrokeshire or Cilgerran, which though also in that county is very near Cardigan town, and at the opposite end of the county. I couldn't make any sense of Llanfynwn, but there's nowhere resembling that anywhere near Blaenporth.

Any ideas? Hugh Jones was from Llanrhydd, Ruthin at the opposite corner of Wales, and his earlier post at Talgarth is in east Brecknockshire.
Thanks for your input Chris, I am not particularly good on Welsh geography, so that is all useful to know! It does seem that the parish, or the area in general may be attracting a significant amount of Welsh immigration, but it would be interesting to perhaps take a sample and see if the children were then baptised in the area, or whether they just married here, and then went back to Wales?

I wonder if the Welsh marriages were connected to the huge numbers of sheep and their drovers that went from wales to London every year.

If you are one of a family of seven or eight there is nothing for you in wales, but the drovers return with tales of the streets of London paved with gold, so you travel with them to seek your fortune.

Mike
Well, I did find (from a 1796 book so contemporary with when we are talking about), that the Earl of Dartmouth who had a large house on the Lewisham side of Blackheath, got permission for two markets a week, and two annual fairs, that used to be three days each, in May and October, and seems to have been for all types of livestock, presumably including sheep :), but by 1796, it was apparently only for cattle and the markets had been discontinued. I did also wonder if Blackheath Common might have been used to graze sheep before taking to the London markets? Maybe Sydenham Common too which was also in the parish? Dulwich Common was also nearby.

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/london-environs/vol4/pp514-536

another book from the next year also gives a lot of history of the church, manor, notables etc., and also mentions that in the late 17th century medicinal springs were discovered in Sydenham, in Lewisham parish, known as Dulwich-wells, which had caused an increase in inhabitants and prosperity for the last 100 years

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/survey-kent/vol1/pp503-526

Offline melba_schmelba

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Re: Amazing info on marriages in early 1800s giving insight into migration to London
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 23 June 21 22:12 BST (UK) »
I wonder if the Welsh marriages were connected to the huge numbers of sheep and their drovers that went from wales to London every year.

If you are one of a family of seven or eight there is nothing for you in wales, but the drovers return with tales of the streets of London paved with gold, so you travel with them to seek your fortune.

Mike







I know the route the drovers took from North Wales - leaving the A5 near Brownhills (now Chester Road) and through Kenilworth and Southam (still called the Welsh Road) to Buckingham and then  various routes depending on destination - but I dont think Cardiganshire drovers would take or join this route? Any ideas.

I have to say that Lewisham seems an odd final destination for them but I hardly know the area so can't say.
 


Yes, past my front door and rest for the night at the pub next door.  :)


Rhyadr, Llandrindod, kington then Hereford onwards.

Google “George Jarvis charity” for one example of a young man joining the drovers.

Mike


Added, possibly Lewisham as word spread that there was a friendly maybe welsh speaking rector there
Well, the Rev. Hugh definitely spoke Welsh, he was a subscriber to a Welsh-English dictionary published in 1803

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/A_Dictionary_of_the_Welsh_Language_Expla/QSQ-AAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22hugh+jones%22+lewisham&pg=PP10&printsec=frontcover

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Geiriadur_Cynmraeg_a_Saesoneg_A_Welsh_an/to6TEiI_MzAC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22hugh+jones%22+lewisham&pg=PP16&printsec=frontcover

Also there is a rather intriguing snippet from a 2007 (copyrighted) book,

"Williams advised Iolo 'to write all secrets in Welsh'. Using Welsh was also a means of spreading satirical and subversive material, and Iolo himself, when confronted by fearsome 'Church and King' mobs on the streets of London, resorted to Welsh in order to save his skin. In a wonderful letter to the Revd. Hugh Jones of Lewisham in June, 1794, he wrote:"

but we will have to wait to find out what (unless someone has it :)!

The Correspondence of Iolo Morganwg: 1770-1796
By Iolo Morganwg · 2007


University of Wales Press

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Correspondence_of_Iolo_Morganwg_1770/WO5nAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22hugh+jones%22+lewisham&dq=%22hugh+jones%22+lewisham&printsec=frontcover

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iolo_Morganwg


Offline Gaie

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Re: Amazing info on marriages in early 1800s giving insight into migration to London
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 26 June 21 20:31 BST (UK) »
Hi

The Rev Jones wasn't the only one to record original parishes in the St Mary's, Lewisham records  ;D .

Evan Morgan, the Assistant Curate, was doing the same in 1824 when my GGG grandparents, William Jones and Louisa Pembroke were married.  Louisa was born in Deptford, daughter of a shipwright, and William in Llanfihangel Genaur Glyn, Cardiganshire, a shipwright himself.

Richard Thos Lancaster, curate, was also recording parishes in 1827; Louisa's brother James was married then.

Why none of the Pembrokes married at St Paul's, Deptford, the family parish, is a mystery.  I wonder if they fell out with the incumbent.  Lots of Deptford brides/grooms married at St Mary's.

I'd assumed the huge numbers of people from all over the place marrying there was due to the ports and trade at Deptford and Greenwich.

But we're extremely grateful to these Welsh chaps; until I found William and Louisa's marriage entry I had no idea where the Jones family came from!

Gaie
Sussex, Burwash/Somerset/South London: PANKHURST/FABLING/GREEN/KING/PARROT/POPE/PEMBROKE
Notts/Leics/London: POLLARD/BELAND/FELLS/MORRISON/MARYSON/CLARKE
Northants: MARRIOT/T
Suffolk: LINGLY/LINGLEY/LINDLY/LINDLEY/ SEAGER /SIGGER/SEGGAR/VINCE
Gloucs: WINDOW Glamorgan: JENKINS Cardiganshire: JONES
Poland: OZIEMKIEWICZ France: LINETTE


Offline Rena

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Re: Amazing info on marriages in early 1800s giving insight into migration to London
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 26 June 21 22:09 BST (UK) »
When I started my family research, I couldn't understand why weddings were in the main diocese church and baptisms in the local parish church.  I was told by a vicar that it was normal - it would be easier to take a baby to the local parish church than to travel along the many miles of old roads to the diocese church.
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy: MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell: Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar; Ross: Urray:Mackenzie:  Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell: Perthshire: Brown Ferguson: Wales: McCarthy, Thomas: England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Well(es). Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells;Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

Offline coombs

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Rev Jones entries are similar to the Dade and Barrington registers of the same period in other parts of the country. I think the Durham and Yorkshire ones were the Barrington Transcripts. I was able to prove a Scottish link with a Scottish sounding surname for my several times great grandfather. He was said to be a native of Selkirk, Scotland on his children's baptisms in 1798-1803.
Researching:

LONDON, Coombs, Roberts, Auber, Helsdon, Fradine, Morin, Goodacre
DORSET Coombs, Munday
NORFOLK Helsdon, Riches, Harbord, Budery
KENT Roberts, Goodacre
SUSSEX Walder, Boniface, Dinnage, Standen, Lee, Botten, Wickham, Jupp
SUFFOLK Titshall, Frost, Fairweather, Mayhew, Archer, Eade, Scarfe
DURHAM Stewart, Musgrave, Wilson, Forster
SCOTLAND Stewart in Selkirk
USA Musgrave, Saix
ESSEX Cornwell, Stock, Quilter, Lawrence, Whale, Clift
OXON Edgington, Smith, Inkpen, Snell, Batten, Brain

Offline Shropshire Lass

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I wonder if the Welsh marriages were connected to the huge numbers of sheep and their drovers that went from wales to London every year.

If you are one of a family of seven or eight there is nothing for you in wales, but the drovers return with tales of the streets of London paved with gold, so you travel with them to seek your fortune.

Some would be seasonal drovers; others would be dairymen.  The Welsh, particularly from Cardiganshire, had a large part of the milk production and delivery industry in London.

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