Amazing info on marriages in early 1800s giving insight into migration to London

[melba_schmelba]

On 3rd February, 1801, the Rev. Hugh Jones of St. Mary, Lewisham (then in Kent, now south east London) seemed to have a revelation of the genealogical sort, and began to add very useful information to his marriage register - the birthplaces of both couples, and the maiden name of widows.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1623/images/31280_189637-00015

Whilst many of the marriages of the people are people born in nearby counties, London, Kent, Essex, Middlesex, Surrey, Hertfordshire, and Sussex, on every page there seems to be people born quite a lot further afield, and in particular, from Wales! Some of the people, are probably, as I have often found, simply coming to the London area to get married as a sort of outing, or/and to avoid local opposition to their marriage and their being 'of this parish' is something temporary. It would be interesting to know if anyone knows why so many Welsh born people seem to have come to Lewisham, presumably drawn by some boom in something but, what I do not know! The church was rebuilt around 1774, with big windows and a grand portico, incorporating the old medieval tower so perhaps was seen as a fashionable place to wed

https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC602H3_church-micro-8131-lewisham-st-mary-the-virgin

The Rev. Hugh Jones' Clergy of the Church of England Database entry
https://theclergydatabase.org.uk/jsp/persons/DisplayPerson.jsp?PersonID=1932

Selection of marriages of people born in further flung places, on the first page:

Morgan Jones born in Kilgenny, Cardiganshire marries Ann Morgan born in Llanbadarnfawr, Cardiganshire on 7th February, 1801

2nd page

David Jenkins born Llanfynwn?, Cardiganshire marries Rachel Evan born Blaenporth?, Cardiganshire on 18th February, 1801

John Reese born Portsea, Hampshire marries Sarah Baker born in Stanstead Mounfitchet, Essex

William Herron of St. Peter's, Colchester, Essex, Sgt. 3rd Guards, born in Glasgow, Scotland marries Elizabeth Atkins born in Lewisham on 5th March, 1801

William Alding born in St. Mary, Overy, Southwark marries Charlotte Penford born in Philadelphia, America on 8th March, 1801

3rd page

Francis Samuel Ehrhart born in Copenhagen, Denmark marries Catherine Reeve born in Bromley, Kent on 16th March, 1801

4th page

Joseph Oliver born in near Lampeter Port Steven (Wales) marries Sophia Cooper born in St. Nicholas, Deptford, Kent on 21st April, 1801

Michael Flynn born in Kinsale, Ireland marries Mitchell Treaner born in Pegdruth, Cornwall on 30th April, 1801

5th page

Richard Thorp born in Penshurst, Kent marries Hannah Clarke born in Twyneham, Buckinghamshire on 30th April, 1801

Richard Firminger born in Branshot (Brammshot?), Hampshire marries Elizabeth Page born in Pulborough, Sussex on 2nd May, 1801

William Davies born in Aberystwyth, Cardiganshire marries Mary Tantony born in St. Pauls, Deptford, Kent on 4th May, 1801

6th page

Frederic Dawes born in Huntingdon marries Elizabeth Ward born in Peterborough on 5th May, 1801

James Turner born in St. John, City of Worcester marries Louisa Bull born in Windsor on 11th May, 1801

Michael Geary born in Limerick (Ireland) marries Elizabeth Stuart born in Aberdeen on 29th May, 1801

7th page

John Williams born in Trefilain, Cardiganshire marries Elizabeth Jenkins born in Llanbadarnfawr, Cardiganshire on 30th May, 1801

Frederic William Forck born in Karresburg, Electorate of Pfalz (now Germany) marries Catherine Mountain born in Christchurch, Spitalfields, Middlesex on 31st May, 1801

Christopher Grumley born in Dublin, Ireland marries Frances Lennox born in St. Paul's, Deptford, Kent on 17th June, 1801

In 1814, Hugh seems to either tire of it, or perhaps some meddling church official  told him off for doing it, as the 16th January, 1814 seems to be the last marriage he collected the extra information for:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1623/images/31280_194449-00174

this seems to be a copy that goes from 1810-18
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1623/images/31280_194449-00010

another copy that seems to cover some of 1801-1814
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1623/images/31280_190289-00013

[melba_schmelba]

It occurred to me, can it be a coincidence, that the first UK census was taken on 10th March, 1801? Just over a month after Hugh first started adding this extra data to his own records? Maybe he was a genealogist and disappointed that this early census wasn't more thorough in the data that it recorded so thought he would 'do his own' ? I am not even sure this first census even recorded head of household names, maybe that came in in 1831?

[Rena]

I suspect the answer could be that the area holds the sea port of Greenwich and the Greenwich Hospital which treated injured sailors (Greenwich Pensioners).

In one of my areas of interest is the Scottish Highlands where large estate owners raised armies in the late 1790s for a forthcoming war - which I suspect was to be held with Denmark.  (I phoned up the archives to enquire about the cost of a list of parish men suitable for call up to the army but couldn't afford the £500.00 quoted)   
I've now lost the documentation but I used to have information (when I was researching my Speights of West  Riding Yorkshire) where separate English parishes were instructed to each submit a number of local young men to serve in the British navy.

[melba_schmelba]

I suspect the answer could be that the area holds the sea port of Greenwich and the Greenwich Hospital which treated injured sailors (Greenwich Pensioners).

In one of my areas of interest is the Scottish Highlands where large estate owners raised armies in the late 1790s for a forthcoming war - which I suspect was to be held with Denmark.  (I phoned up the archives to enquire about the cost of a list of parish men suitable for call up to the army but couldn't afford the £500.00 quoted)   
I've now lost the documentation but I used to have information (when I was researching my Speights of West  Riding Yorkshire) where separate English parishes were instructed to each submit a number of local young men to serve in the British navy.

That's an interesting thought Rena. It was the time of the Napoleonic Wars. However, I have checked all the nearby parishes, i.e. Greenwich, Deptford, Plumstead and Woolwich and none of these have this extra birthplace and maiden name data. Also, I am not sure taking this data at marriages would be very useful in making a potential muster/call up list, since so many marry in a place where they do not intend to live (i.e. wife's parish of birth), also adding the birthplace data for women and their maiden names wouldn't really seem to be any use for that purpose either. This is the Rev. Hugh Jones' Oxford Alumni entry:

JONES, Hugh s. Roger, of Llanrhydd, co. Denbigh. pleb. QUEENS COLLEGE, matric. 3rd March, 1767, aged 17; B.A. 1770, M.A. 1773, rector of Talgarth, Brecon, and of Lewisham, Kent, 1825 until his death, 3rd July, 1831. See Gent.'s Mag., ii. 91.

his obituary in the Gentleman's Magazine

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Gentleman_s_Magazine/YclDAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22hugh+jones%22+gentlemans&pg=PA91&printsec=frontcover

He seems to have been a member of the 'Honourable and Loyal Society of Antient Britons', which seems to have been originally intended for the Welsh in London to underline their loyalist sympathies (and to distance them from suspicions of Jacobite tendencies)

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/A_Brief_Account_of_the_Rise_Progress_and/WDZfAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22hugh%20jones%22&pg=PA33&printsec=frontcover&bsq=%22hugh%20jones%22

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honourable_and_Loyal_Society_of_Antient_Britons

[chris_49]

I was interested that almost all the Welsh people were from Cardiganshire (including Lampeter, county not given) - a distant and not very populous county. Could there be some special connection to Lewisham other than the Greenwich connection mentioned? Before the railways this was a difficult journey whether by land or sea.

Although there are three marriages between Cardiganshire couples, others marry people from elsewhere. And the couples from the county aer not from places near each other - Tresilan is a fair way from Llanbadarnfawr, and the best I can do with Kilgenny is either Kilgetty, Pembrokeshire or Cilgerran, which though also in that county is very near Cardigan town, and at the opposite end of the county. I couldn't make any sense of Llanfynwn, but there's nowhere resembling that anywhere near Blaenporth.

Any ideas? Hugh Jones was from Llanrhydd, Ruthin at the opposite corner of Wales, and his earlier post at Talgarth is in east Brecknockshire.
 

[mazi]

I wonder if the Welsh marriages were connected to the huge numbers of sheep and their drovers that went from wales to London every year.

If you are one of a family of seven or eight there is nothing for you in wales, but the drovers return with tales of the streets of London paved with gold, so you travel with them to seek your fortune.

Mike

[chris_49]

I wonder if the Welsh marriages were connected to the huge numbers of sheep and their drovers that went from wales to London every year.

If you are one of a family of seven or eight there is nothing for you in wales, but the drovers return with tales of the streets of London paved with gold, so you travel with them to seek your fortune.

Mike

I know the route the drovers took from North Wales - leaving the A5 near Brownhills (now Chester Road) and through Kenilworth and Southam (still called the Welsh Road) to Buckingham and then various routes depending on destination - but I dont think Cardiganshire drovers would take or join this route? Any ideas.

I have to say that Lewisham seems an odd final destination for them but I hardly know the area so can't say.
 

[coombs]

I have ancestors from Bermondsey, which is about 2 miles north west of Lewisham, and found several Welsh sounding surnames in that area as well, my Roberts ancestors were in Bermondsey in the 1770s, so they were likely from Wales originally. Welsh surnames at this time in history seems more common in this part of London (Lewisham, Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) at the time than other areas of London.

Pity other parishes did not follow Hugh's lead.

[chris_49]

I have ancestors from Bermondsey, which is about 2 miles north west of Lewisham, and found several Welsh sounding surnames in that area as well, my Roberts ancestors were in Bermondsey in the 1770s, so they were likely from Wales originally. Welsh surnames at this time in history seems more common in this part of London (Lewisham, Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) at the time than other areas of London.

Pity other parishes did not follow Hugh's lead.

The difficulty with names like Roberts Williams and Davies is that they are essentially English surnames that were very much adopted in Wales which used not to have surnames at all. "Proper" Welsh surmames are Lloyd, Wynne, Morgan, Vaughan - and -s versions of Welsh forenames like Griffiths, Evans, Howells - and the ap- contractions like Parry, Price, Powell, Bevan, Bowen. Davies in England though is more often Davis, which is rare in Wales.