John George White

[MonicaL]

Fred, sorry I don't know the history of the school. I found this www.wendellparkprimaryschool.co.uk/our-school/history-1 with some general background

One thing to note on religeous schools and selection by parents. John George and Dorothy did not marry in a church but a registry office. It may be that Dorothy's family were RC and she/they wanted the children to attend a RC school. Hard to say really.

Do the family members that you are working with not think that Edmund Joseph and Clara Elizabeth were John George's parents with what has been found so far?

John, thanks you for putting me out of my misery!

Monica

[jonwarrn]

June 1870, Holborn 1b 1033
Edmond Joseph R White + Mary Hughes (probably!)

A tree on ancestry has both the marriage certificate, and the birth certificate of EJR White.
The two trees I have looked at do not have him after 1871.

Birth of Edmund Joseph Robert White (very poor scan)
-teenth July 1851 at 37 Great Percy Street, Clerkenwell
Father Edmund Richard White, Artist
Mother Mary Ann White, formerly Simmons

That date of birth might be seventeenth or fourteenth?
It's very close to the one on 1939 Register in Hayes & Harlington.

Marriage to Mary Hughes (better scan!)
11 May 1870, Holborn Register Office
Edmond Joseph Robert White, 18 years, Jewel hole maker, father Edmond Richard White, Artist
+
Mary Hughes, 19

EJR White is with his parents in Islington in 1871, age 19, single.
Mary White, 20, and a son, is with her brother James Hughes in 1871
In 1881 Mary is apparently in Clerkenwell, married, with said son, but no husband.

[MonicaL]

Fred, with John George and Dorothy's children, were they baptised at a RC church I wonder? You could make enquiries on this. There will be nothing on line for this. I am thinking if you were able to find these records, godparents' names from the registers may hopefully help to confirm some of the people we have been discussing here.

Monica

[F.H.]

Monica, I too looked up the school and it doesn't say...

My cousins are "over the moon" by what's been found so far and asked me to pass on thanks to all concerned.

Sadly for them, not a lot was spoken regarding families. They had no idea of Edmund Joseph and Clara Elizabeth...OR the murder...

And to think of the little we all had to start with, the results have been incredible. I'm not too sure how much further this will go but, even though I've dropped a few clangers along the way, I have loved every part of it, thank you all.

Fred.

[MonicaL]

That is great that the info unravelling is important to them. You have worked hard too on their behalf 

Over their early years, was there no knowledge of cousins, uncles and aunts? The granparents were also alive for a good time of their early years and would have been nearby from what we has seen so far.

I just wanted to add this info on Clara Elizabeth Coombs. We had her with her family in 1881 back in Brighton

Clara Elizabeth White, age 70. Died in 1933 (showing in Brentford, 3rd Qrt vol. 3a/pg. 113) and buried on 11 August at St Mary, Acton, Ealing.

Looks like she may have been born in Brighton. Likely birth entry for her on 4th Qrt 1862. With her family in 1881 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q274-31P3

I found this info on her father www.photohistory-sussex.co.uk/BTN1860sBoBr.htm

...Matilda Combs, Thomas Boxell's mother, had five brothers and three of these siblings went on to become professional photographers in Brighton. Charles Combs (born 1830, Seaford) and John Combs (born 1834, Seaford) had opened a daguerreotype portrait studio in Brighton in 1854. Charles and John Combs, who preferred to trade under the name of Combes rather than Combs, ended their business partnership "by mutual consent" in May 1858. Charles Combes (Combs) operated a photographic studio on the Esplanade leading to Brighton's Chain Pier and by 1862, he had opened a second studio at 19 Bedford Place, Brighton. For a short time, Charles's brother John Combes, managed a photographic studio at 62 St James' Street, Brighton, but although he worked as a photographer for nearly 50 years, he did not have the same commercial success as his older brother. Matilda's youngest brother Benjamin Combs (born 1842, Brighton), also became a professional photographer and for ten years ran his own photographic portrait studio in Bishops Stortford. Benjamin Combs eventually returned to Brighton, where he worked as a beach photographer in he 1880s and 1890s.

In 1864, Charles Combs (Combes), Thomas Boxell's uncle, was operating a photographic portrait studio in Brighton's Preston Street. It is possible that Thomas Boxell served his apprenticeship as a photographer in Charles Combes' Preston Street studio. By 1867, Thomas Boxell. then only twenty-one, felt confident enough to open his own photographic portrait studio at 40 North Street, Brighton...

Thomas Bowell was Clara Elizabeth's cousin. Her father John and Thomas's mother Matilda were siblings.

This takes you all back further on this line at least. We are still bogged down a bit on the question marks over Charles Edward v. Edmund Joseph 

Monica

[MonicaL]

For those with a subs to A/try, I have just found a family tree for this line www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/117904514/person/382131277245/facts

I think tree owner is likely connected to John George's sister Elizabeth Mary b. 1897 who married and headed off the US. Not sure where and when Elizabeth Mary and husband William George Gates met (added: they married at Chiswick Registry Office on 28 Dec 1918). He was Canadian. There are a number of shipping manifests for Elizabeth and her daughter Doreen returing to the UK. Elizabeth gave the family address which we have, Orchard Cottage, Acton as her UK contact address.

Not surprisingly, the origins of Edmund Joseph White are unknown. Not a surprise really 

Monica

[F.H.]

Hi Jon.

"EJR White is with his parents in Islington in 1871, age 19, single.
Mary White, 20, and a son is with her brother James Hughes in 1871
In 1881 Mary is apparently in Clerkenwell, married, with said son, but no husband."

Do I take it that he has separated and gone off with Clara Elizabeth?

Monica,
That was very interesting regarding the photography, thank you.


Would anyone know the origin of a surname please "Pfeiffer"
This was the surname of Clara Elizabeth Coombs mother.

[MonicaL]

A little here on the surname www.ancestry.co.uk/name-origin?surname=pfeiffer If you google, there are more links although most show similar details.

Family Search have this potential entry for Elizabeth Ann www.familysearch.org/tree/person/sources/M5FP-SJS

From Clara's parents' marriage at St Nicholas (Anglican), Brighton on 26 Jun 1856, Elizabeth Ann's father is also given as Frederick John. Husband John, showing as Combs, his father also confirmed as William as we had from that family tree earlier.

Possible entry for Elizabeth A in 1841 in Mortlake (reg district Richmond):

John Light 40 grocer (?)
Mary Pfeiffer 25 FS (femal servant)
Elizabeth Pfeiffer 10

Monica

[jonwarrn]

Hi
I think the family of Edmund Richard White the artist is rather complicated. It has come up previously on Rootschat, perhaps more in regard to one or two of his other children, than to him, or his son Edmund Joseph Robert.

Anyway, it seems certain that EJR married Mary Hughes, afterwards they have not been seen together.
I think we are a way off Clara yet.

That second marriage possibility, which would be bigamous
29 Feb 1880, St John Deptford
Edmund Joseph White, 28, Bachelor, Raly Guard, father Edmund Richard White, Architect
+
Mary Ann Haylock, 24

I think they might be in Islington in 1881, under her name!
Edward J Haylock 28 Railway Carman, born Clerkenwell
Mary Ann Haylock 25 Dressmaker, born Ely
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q279-VP5X

Unless someone can find such an Edward J Haylock!

Edmund and Clara - birth registrations of their other children, have we mentioned them much?
Clara Coombs goes into Chelsea workhouse, 17 April 1887. She is 24, single, and pregnant.
Lilian (Coombes!) is born same day, entry further down the page (also on ancestry)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1L-896P-2

Clara and Lillian Coombes discharged 30 April 1887
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1L-89XJ-7

Now I have got the births of the first two
COMBES, LILIAN  CLARA     
Mother's Maiden Surname: —
GRO Reference: 1887  J Quarter in CHELSEA  Volume 01A  Page 349

COMBS, MAY WHITE
Mother's Maiden Surname: —
GRO Reference: 1889  S Quarter in CHELSEA  Volume 01A  Page 331