Author Topic: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy  (Read 9759 times)

Offline rustyh

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Re: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy
« Reply #126 on: Wednesday 14 April 21 17:31 BST (UK) »
Thanks osprey, Loosing track of everything

Offline osprey

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Re: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy
« Reply #127 on: Wednesday 14 April 21 18:17 BST (UK) »
easily done when there's been so much information.   ;D

How about this possible baptism for Hercules?

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NBTR-VB9
the register is on Findmypast & I think it says Lovall, father noted as Traveller.
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline rustyh

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Re: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy
« Reply #128 on: Thursday 15 April 21 18:02 BST (UK) »
I believe this is the list of Hurcules and Susanna's children

Caroline
Ann Selina
Unetta (Married George Amer)
Jubal
Georgianna (possibly died clsoe to birth)
Matthew (Partnered Maria Anslow)
Elizabeth (Partnered Phoenix Smith)

Offline MonicaL

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Re: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy
« Reply #129 on: Thursday 15 April 21 18:34 BST (UK) »
Good summary for them. Impossible to find in the early censuses! What is new  ::)

Monica
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Offline osprey

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Re: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy
« Reply #130 on: Thursday 15 April 21 19:45 BST (UK) »
I have a memory that the enumerators weren't instructed to search out travellers in their districts in the early census years.

I was trying to look for Matthew yesterday. There were some possible birth registrations with mmn Anslow but couldn't find a marriage.

Burial 14 Nov 1888 Wednesfield heath for Ann Selina Lovell aged 3 and Elijah Lovell aged 1 of Bushbury Road - both births had mmn Anslow.

Same parish, baptism 20 Nov 1889 Carnation daughter of Matthew & Maria Lovell.

Possible death reg Matthew Lovell 44 march qtr 1896 Walsall vol 6b pg 426

baptism of daughter Henrietta to George & Unetta Aymer

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XXGV-HBV

birth reg
Jubal Lovell march qtr 1853 Dudley vol 6c pg 118 mmn Smith
Burial 5 Aug 1857 Darlaston, Staffs Jubal Lovell age 4 of Fallings Heath

baptism Lache with Saltney, Cheshire 29 April 1855 Georgiana daughter of Harkless, hawker, and Susannah Lovell staying in Sandy Lane
burial Whittington, Staffs 21 Oct 1855 Georgiana Lovell 25 weeks
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline rustyh

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Re: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy
« Reply #131 on: Thursday 15 April 21 22:12 BST (UK) »
Just putting this out there, not done research on it yet, but came across this 1911 census.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23833732?h=c7eef2

Adelaides marriage cert had her father as William Hall.
This census shows a 46 year old William Hall as brother to a Widowed Emma Smith. I. Wondering if Emma is part of the black patch Smiths.

Offline bbart

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Re: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy
« Reply #132 on: Friday 16 April 21 00:01 BST (UK) »
Just putting this out there, not done research on it yet, but came across this 1911 census.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23833732?h=c7eef2

Adelaides marriage cert had her father as William Hall.
This census shows a 46 year old William Hall as brother to a Widowed Emma Smith. I. Wondering if Emma is part of the black patch Smiths.

I mentioned him on Reply #80, pg 9.  Emma was widow of Joseph Smith.

Offline rustyh

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Re: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy
« Reply #133 on: Friday 16 April 21 06:51 BST (UK) »
Arrr yes, sorry Bbart, was quite a few William posts on that page.

I don't think we followed up on him, Did we rule him out?

Edit: So we found Joseph was from a different Smith family, meaning this William is also from a different Family  :'( :'( >:(

Offline bbart

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Re: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy
« Reply #134 on: Friday 16 April 21 08:04 BST (UK) »
Next year the 1921 census will be released through FindMyPast.  Hopefully it clears up some of the muddle. The original plan was a release date in January, but with the world in a mess, I suppose they could be behind schedule.

That said, you are working with a family that rarely registers anything, have no idea of how old they are, and change names.  It does appear Amy is the real mother of your Adelaide, so at least you are ahead on that one!  As for William Hall, you might just be better off keeping a list on the side of all the ones that would fit, and go the DNA route and hope you run into a Hall that is on your list. Otherwise, you are just guessing.

I did read an old newspaper article on the Black Patch where the church (St. James) was asked about the gypsies, and the response was that some of them married/baptised/buried there, BUT the gypsies had their own "chapel" in the camp.  None of them went to the church for services, and it was thought that the very few of them that practiced their faith used their own chapel.  Perhaps this little chapel of theirs was "baptising" and "marrying" people, but none of it ever registered, because it wouldn't have been accepted/legal?

Anyways, it's a tough family to follow, and far too easy to go down the rabbit hole of chasing the wrong people. Take a day off looking now and then; it's far too easy to get consumed and overwhelmed with so much info to sift through!