Patrick McDonald

[groat]

My suspicion is that she was Lucy Feldmann, nee Goulds. Born in Kent somewhere around 1832-5, died January 1905 (8 months before my grandparents' wedding, which could be one reason why she didn't attend). In 1891 she appears as Lucy L Feldmann (Leonora?) living with her grandchildren. The problem is her age. Her birth appears variously as 1831, 1832 and 1835. Her marriage certificate in 1850 gives her age as 21 and the 1901 census as 70. That would make her between 41 and 47 when my grandmother was born - not impossible, but...

[heywood]

I prefer my version 

The birth certificate would usually show the previous surname as well, unless she was keeping it a secret from John.

[groat]

I'm not sure what you mean. Here's a copy of the BC. The inclusion of  the middle name "Leonora" appears significant to me and I can only find the 1891 entry where the "L" initial appears. I'm also curious as to why Lucy went to a workhouse to give birth.

I'm not saying I'm certain - far from it. That's why I come here to seek help.

[heywood]

Please go with your own instincts. These are just my thoughts.

I meant that when the mother has been married twice, it would read late  Feldman, formerly Coates. I think that’s the wording. However, I suppose it depends on how much information is divulged.
Then, I wonder why Flora isn’t living with Lucy - although the census is only one night, I suppose.
Thirdly, I thought that the death of a young Lucy might fit in with being raised by grandmother.

Added
I also thought about the age difference etc but you have considered that.

[Maiden Stone]

I'm also curious as to why Lucy went to a workhouse to give birth.

Workhouses had infirmaries which may have been the only free hospitals in some districts.
Some workhouse admissions registers survive. See Peter Higginbottom's workhouse website for information about workhouses and links.
Have you found Lucy and John together on a census? Were there other children of the marriage?

Was the 1905 wedding in a Catholic church? If the couple were related they would have needed a dispensation; degree of consanguinity or affinity was often noted in marriage register margin.
2 of my English Catholic lines from a small town and a rural area were in the habit of marrying relatives with the same surname but they weren't 1st cousins. They included 3 men who shared  forenames & surnames with their fathers-in-law and their brothers-in-law.   

[heywood]

Here is another bit of information/coincidence perhaps.

I was looking at Flora’s birth certificate (no Flora?). Looking for the name Dorette in 1871/1881, there is a high incidence in German born individuals.
There is this interesting entry

1881 4461/120/1
Dorette C Fettman (transcribed but could be Feltman) b Germany
She is a servant in a German household in Manningham, Bradford.

The child Flora/Florence with grandmother Sarah, has Bradford as birthplace on one census and London on the other.

It could all be coincidence though.

[groat]

All very interesting, but perhaps still leaving me in a bit of a haze. I'm not keen on going with my instincts - I prefer evidence if I can find it.
The wedding was in a Catholic church - copy MC attached in case there's more to be gleaned from it.
No I haven't found John and Lucy together or any evidence that they ever married. As far as I know they had no other children together.
I had also wondered about the name Dorette (which is the first name on the BC, which as you observe did not include Flora, the name by which she appeared to be know to the family - her death is recorded as Flora M.D.S. McDonald - I have the family's memorial card). On her Wedding Report she appears as "Miss Flora McDonald, daughter of Mr John and Mrs McDonald, Scarborough". Neither of the bride's parents are listed as guests although presents include a gift from "bride's father". I also have a photograph of her inscribed "Flora Marie Dorette Sophie Macdonald aged 18yrs about 1896"
My Ancestry DNA results (which I realise are only a rough guide) give a breakdown of 54% North East Scotland and 36% Ireland, which is hard - though not impossible - to tie in with any recent German connection. The DNA results are doubly perplexing as I've traced my maternal grandfather's line (in theory accounting for 24% of my DNA) reasonably convincingly back to the mid-1700s confined to Suffolk and Essex.
Sorry if I'm rambling a bit but this thread seems to have brought me quite a long way and , as ever, I'd like to get a bit further.
Thank you both.

[heywood]

It is difficult now that this other possibility of kinship has been thrown into the mix.
The church record is the one where consanguinity would be noted as Maiden Stone says. You could try contacting the church - Our Lady of Victories, Kensington to see if they still hold the records.
As you say, you need more evidence and my findings could be just absolute coincidence.
I just thought I would mention them.

[Maiden Stone]

The wedding was in a Catholic church - copy MC attached in case there's more to be gleaned from
it.
/quote]

Who do you think the witnesses were, John MacDonald and George McDonald?
The MacDonald/McDonald difference may be down to the transcriber in this case. It appears to me that it's all in the same handwriting.