A Wedding photo family Conundrum.

[This Boy]

Thank you for this explanation Marmalady. I was not aware. I suppose it remains inconclusive. I think this evening I shall have a go at seeing if the other identically named John James Turnbull has a Smith grandparent then at least I will be able to rule that particular census return out.
 
Thanks again,

Neil.

[This Boy]

For a child of an unmarried couple to have the father named on the birth certificate, he had to be present at the Registration of the birth. If he was working and unable to have time off to go with the mother to register the birth there was no formal recognition of his relationship to the child.
So just because the father is not named does not mean that there was no on-going relationship between the father and his illegitimate child.
So Sarah Ann may well have known her father -- he may even have lived with the family for some of her early life -- and the relationship continued once she had children of her own.

If an unmarried father was present at a birth registration and named as the father, would the child still take the mothers surname?

[This Boy]

I am increasingly believing that the John James Turnbull who was resident as a 5 year old grandson of James Smith aged 56 is 'my' John James Turnbull and that James Smith must have been the blood father of the illegitimate Sarah Ann Tipping. James Smith was born in Stanwix. In 1861 Sarah's mother, Margaret Ann is living in Stanwix. Sarah was born in Stanwix. James is 8 years older than Margaret Ann. The boy John James is  recorded in the census as having been born in Botcherby. My John James was born in Botcherby.

[Marmalady]

If an unmarried father was present at a birth registration and named as the father, would the child still take the mothers surname?

Depends entirely on the family circumstances. There is no hard and fast rule.

If they were all living together as a family the child may well have taken the father's name -- but could equally well have taken the mother's name

If the parents were living separately, the child is less likely to take the father's name, but again might have done.

[Marmalady]

I am increasingly believing that the John James Turnbull who was resident as a 5 year old grandson of James Smith aged 56 is 'my' John James Turnbull and that James Smith must have been the blood father of the illegitimate Sarah Ann Tipping. James Smith was born in Stanwix. In 1861 Sarah's mother, Margaret Ann is living in Stanwix. Sarah was born in Stanwix. James is 8 years older than Margaret Ann. The boy John James is  recorded in the census as having been born in Botcherby. My John James was born in Botcherby.

It seems a reasonable conclusion

[Gan Yam]

As the guests are all wearing very impressive hats I am assuming that this was a church wedding.  I haven't checked but am assuming that Shakespeare Street was in Caldewgate in Poets corner and they would marry in Holy Trinity Church.  If everywhere was open I could have checked the marriage entry for you to see if the witnesses would give any clue.

Have checked and the wedding did take place in Holy Trinity Church, hence the magnificent head wear!.

[IanShalapata]

Hi Neil,

Hopefully I am not too late to the party.

To possibly add a wrench into this investigation, I note that there was a marriage of a Margaret Tiffen registered in Carlisle in 1862. On the page of possible grooms is listed a George Smith. Dec 1862 10b 580

I don't know if this helps or hinders at all.

Note: Check your PMs for a message from me.

Regards

[maddys52]

familysearch have this marriage between Margaret TIFFEN and Thomas SEWELL 22 Dec 1862 at Christ Church, Carlisle
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NKBK-JLF

(Margaret TIFFIN on the marriage registration)

So no SMITH connecton here. 

[IanShalapata]

That solved, then. Thank you maddys52!