A Wedding photo family Conundrum.

[Mabel Bagshawe]

So this is the family on 1881 in Back Duke St, Caldewgate - Henry also has mmn Tipping.  All b Carlisle except where noted

William Sherlock    38
Margaret Ann Sherlock    38 - washerwoman b Bootle
Mary Jane Sherlock    22 - daughter b Rockliff
Thomas W. Tiffen    16 - stepson
Henry Sherlock    4
James Sherlock     13 months
Margaret Lamb    2 - daughter []

RG11; 5160; 99; 44;

[This Boy]

YAY 

Brilliant Mabel. That should blow this whole case open I think.

Thank you so much.

[Mabel Bagshawe]

I think the Leppings have been mentioned before?

1871 - Caldewgate

Margaret Ann Lepping    28    Head b Bootle. Unmarried
Mary P Lepping    13    Daughter b Bootle
Sarah D Lepping    8    Daughter
Thomas W Lepping    5    Son
Grace Robinson    20    Boarder

Haven't found a Sherlock marriage yet!

[This Boy]

Fantastic Mabel,

Yes, it was reply 24 a team effort from Maddys52 and Gan Yam.

More thanks. 

[This Boy]

I am staggered at the fantastic help I have had on this case and the success too. Most problems are solved, certainly most of the big ones. I think the ones that remain are perhaps likely to remain a mystery:

Where is any record of the marriage between William Turnbull and Sarah Ann Tipping? The 1911 census states 29 years of marriage, they were both unmarried on 1881 census but had their first Turnbull child in Q1 1883. This creates such a small window of time for the marriage. Do you think that I am just not looking in the right place for the marriage or is it more likely that they were never actually married.

Why is John James Turnbull, as a 5 year old boy, not living with his parents who are listed alone but appears to be living with a James and Janet Smith who are listed as his Grandparents. Is this a different John James Turnbull aged 5? Is James Smith the father of an illegitimate William Turnbull or the illegitimate Sarah Ann Tipping?

I also cannot find a death for William Turnbull b 1857. He is living in the 1911 census but his wife is a widow in the 1921 census.

I am happy to spend money buying a certificate or two to try to solve these mysteries but where do people think my money would be best spent?

I am interested in any discussion about such not just solutions.

[Mabel Bagshawe]

Why is John James Turnbull, as a 5 year old boy, not living with his parents who are listed alone but appears to be living with a James and Janet Smith who are listed as his Grandparents. Is this a different John James Turnbull aged 5? Is James Smith the father of an illegitimate William Turnbull or the illegitimate Sarah Ann Tipping?

Janet's maiden name was Craig,  so William isn't her son

John James might just have been staying with his grandparents on census night, not living with them permanently

[This Boy]

Thank you Mabel,

Then do you think I can infer with confidence that James Smith was the father of the illegitimate Sarah Ann Tipping? Do you think it would be common in those days for such men to retain a relationship with their blood grandchildren? If so that surprises me although perhaps it should not. I don't suppose there is any way of establishing such.

[This Boy]

With regard to my other puzzle regarding the whereabouts of my John James Turnbull on the 1891 census, I think the one I suggested where there is a 5 year old John James Turnbull, born in Botcherby and living with Smith grandparents is increasingly unlikely to be my John James. I have found another John James Turnbull baptised in Carlisle to a David and Jane Turnbull (no maiden name) on 7/9/1884. I suspect this one is the Smith grandson leaving my John James still missing in the 1891.

Any help or suggestions with these final issues will be greatly appreciated.

Just spotted this I wrote months ago. Back to the drawing board perhaps.

[Marmalady]

Thank you Mabel,

Then do you think I can infer with confidence that James Smith was the father of the illegitimate Sarah Ann Tipping? Do you think it would be common in those days for such men to retain a relationship with their blood grandchildren? If so that surprises me although perhaps it should not. I don't suppose there is any way of establishing such.

For a child of an unmarried couple to have the father named on the birth certificate, he had to be present at the Registration of the birth. If he was working and unable to have time off to go with the mother to register the birth there was no formal recognition of his relationship to the child.
So just because the father is not named does not mean that there was no on-going relationship between the father and his illegitimate child.
So Sarah Ann may well have known her father -- he may even have lived with the family for some of her early life -- and the relationship continued once she had children of her own.