Author Topic: All Things DOWNING/DOWNEY in County Derry  (Read 10245 times)

Offline M_ONeill

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Re: All Things DOWNING/DOWNEY in County Derry
« Reply #27 on: Thursday 18 March 21 16:13 GMT (UK) »
1830 was a hell of a year for the local area, it seems. Three months after Stafford was sentenced saw the 'Maghera Riots', started when armed gangs of Ribbonmen and Orangemen started shooting at each other in clashes after the local 12th July marches. I'm not sure of the precise geography, but I think they were firing across the Gulladuff road, Ribbonmen to the north, Orangemen to the south.

Tensions were running very high after the Catholic Emancipation Act had passed the previous year. There was apparently a wave of women and children fleeing down the road towards Maghera, as seen by a band of mounted police coming the other way. Later that evening a number of catholic homes were burnt down by a number of the Orangemen - including the house of my presumed 4x great grandfather William Carmichael in Drumard. Strangely enough, when I brought this story up to my family, one of my cousins said he remembered our grandmother telling him the story of when 'the Orange Order burnt us out of our home'. She was born in 1925 - so a grievance nursed for over a hundred years!

Just goes to show that Dreenan and the surrounding area was hardly a 'sleepy little townland'!

Offline dukewm

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Re: All Things DOWNING/DOWNEY in County Derry
« Reply #28 on: Thursday 18 March 21 16:18 GMT (UK) »
I wondered about that after I posted it, Mike.
I think you’re probably right due to Stafford naming his only son George, after his father.
So, the victim was probably a different Stafford, of which there were many.

Offline M_ONeill

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Re: All Things DOWNING/DOWNEY in County Derry
« Reply #29 on: Thursday 18 March 21 16:38 GMT (UK) »
By the way, when you mention Adam Downing's 'castle' what is actually being referred to? Was it an actual castle or just a local name for a stately home of some kind? Whereabouts was it in Rocktown?

Offline dukewm

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Re: All Things DOWNING/DOWNEY in County Derry
« Reply #30 on: Thursday 18 March 21 16:50 GMT (UK) »
No, I’m pretty sure it was NOT an actual castle.  That’s just what the farmer around the corner called it when he played in the ruins as a kid.  I’d wager it was a rather stately home as Adam was Deputy Governor of the County.

The site is on Rocktown Lane right where the road bends left, then right again (going NW away from Rocktown Rd)


Offline M_ONeill

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Re: All Things DOWNING/DOWNEY in County Derry
« Reply #31 on: Thursday 18 March 21 17:09 GMT (UK) »
Oh wow, very close to where my ancestor Ellen Carmichael (née O'Neill) ended up living. The Carmichaels and the family of Stafford O'Neill moved down to adjoining farms down there from Killard sometime between 1862 and 1866, I think. The farm in question was, I think, just a little bit back off the Rocktown Road, on the northern side - opposite where there's now a quarry.

Edit: A rough estimation using google maps puts them at less than 800m to the south of the area you mention. Probably doesn't mean much, but still interesting!

Offline humph19

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Re: All Things DOWNING/DOWNEY in County Derry
« Reply #32 on: Thursday 18 March 21 17:11 GMT (UK) »
It looks like it was William Downing who was charged with the killing of Stafford Downing in 1830.

Jim Humphrey

Offline M_ONeill

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Re: All Things DOWNING/DOWNEY in County Derry
« Reply #33 on: Saturday 20 March 21 15:29 GMT (UK) »
Some thoughts on the origin of the name Stafford and how it relates to the Downing family.

So I was talking with a cousin about our family history and he asked about the origins of the name 'Stafford'. I've been giving this some thought and thought I'd post to the thread about it.

We can say with certainty that the name appeared in the Downing family sometime prior to 1734 (thanks to the Dreenan Lease). Since Stafford Downing (I) was a fully grown man when he obtained the lease, it seems likely to have entered the family either at or before the beginning of the 18th century.

Now an old tradition that seems to have been present in protestant families, as well as culturally Scottish families, is the preserving of the names of families married into theirs in the form of first and second names. The Drumard Downings give us examples of this tradition in names such as 'Dawson Downing' and 'Rowe Downing'. The practice seems to be particularly prevalent in well-to-do protestant families. I would theorise this is likely because of the social advantages in showing off your family's social connections through marriage. When researching the Bell part of my tree in Tyrone I encountered local names in Coagh such as 'Hamilton Bell', 'Arthur Hamilton Bell' 'David Miller Bell', etc, so the practice was not uncommon.

If we were to accept, for sake of argument, that this was the origin of the name in the Downing family, then where might it have come from?

The earliest origin point I can find for the name in the local area is Sir Francis Stafford. In 1572 the English built a castle in Portglenone whose garrison was captained by Francis. He then later became  Governor of Ulster and named his home Mount Stafford (the castle is long gone but the name is memorialised in the name of Mount Stafford Road, to the north of Portglenone). He reputedly died in 1609.

He seems to have had a number of children with his wife Anne Grogan, but the only ones I can find record of are; Edmund Stafford, who later became Sir Edmund of Mount Stafford, his father's heir, Mary Stafford who married John Echlin Esq. of County Down, and a Martha Stafford who married Sir Henry O'Neill of Edenduffcarrick ('Shane's Castle')  south of Randalstown and east of 'Staffordstown' which I presume has a link to the Stafford family, but I've yet to find a good source.

Sir Edmund died childless in March of either 1644 or 1645. In his will he made his nephew Francis Echlin Esq. his heir. Upon succeeding in 1645, Francis took the name and arms of Stafford. I won't belabour the point by listing the entire pedigree, suffice to say that the 'mainline' branch of the Stafford family appear to have been present in Portglenone right down until the end of the 17th century and into the beginning of the 18th. However, it seems to me that a lot of the family tree is incomplete, and so there are likely many children we're not aware of.

So where does that leave us? Assuming again that Stafford (I) was named for a marriage, and assuming also that he was born sometime in the early 18th century, that gives us a gap of about 100 years to play with between the death of Sir Francis Stafford and Stafford Downing's birth.

I think it may be notable that, despite the seemingly close-links that Dukewm has shown between the Dreenan and Drumard Downings, there appear to be no Staffords in the Drumard branch at all (Dukewm, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). I would suggest that any potential Stafford family ancestry is therefore potentially confined to the Stafford branch. If we also hypothesise that Stafford (I) is the first to bear the name, then perhaps the Downing - Stafford marriage might be close to him, perhaps his own parents or grandparents? Food for thought.

It's here I'd like to throw in a little wildcard - a Stafford O'Neill who I can't place. There is a tombstone in Fallsburgh, New York for a Stafford D. O'Neill (b. c1777 - d 1851). Based on the name of a son, John Dennison O'Neill, I'd suggest that's likely what the initial 'D' means in this Stafford's name. Newspaper reports suggest he came and settled in Fallsburgh in 1805. Now his year of birth places him too early to be a son of James O'Neill and Esther Downing.

He might, of course, not even be anything to do with the Stafford families of Dreenan, but it makes me wonder, given the name and the use of another surname as a seemingly-hereditary middle name. I got in touch with some of the owners of these trees. and sadly no one knows where this Stafford came from, other than 'Ireland'.


Offline dukewm

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Re: All Things DOWNING/DOWNEY in County Derry
« Reply #34 on: Saturday 20 March 21 15:53 GMT (UK) »
Good stuff Mike.

Thanks for the history of the Stafford family.  You could be right about a Stafford marrying into the Downing family.  I have "pencilled in" an estimated birth year of 1705 for Stafford (I) Downing, which should be within 10 years either way, but that likely places him as a grandson of one of Nicholas' brothers, which as you say, could mean his mother, or grandmother, could have been a Stafford.

Offline M_ONeill

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Re: All Things DOWNING/DOWNEY in County Derry
« Reply #35 on: Friday 02 December 22 18:21 GMT (UK) »
Hi Dukewm, hope you're well!

I'm currently attempting to put together a piece of work untangling all the various O'Neill families of Dreenan and the surrounding townlands. We'll see how far I get with it (it's obviously a lot to go through!), but sure enough a few families in I've run into some Downings and I'm trying to see if I can narrow down which particular ones!

The question centres on one particular group of O'Neills (name written Neill) sharing ~18 Acres in Dreenan as shown in the initial Griffiths valuations:

Map ref 47

a) Michael Neill
b) Hugh Neill
c) Arthur Neill

Lessor: Julius Casement

I'm not sure which is the elder of this trio, as their land all changes hands roughly around the same time. Arthur's land on plot 47 c) switches to a Bernard O'Neill sometime around or prior to 1870, then again in 1871 to a Henry O'Neill.

Plot 47 a) switches from Michael to a Henry O'Neill around the same time (I think likely the same man). 47 b) goes from Hugh to a William Downing around 1872. In 1873 there's some reorganisation, likely to reconstitute the three former holdings into two . They are then held by Henry O'Neill and William Downing as two neighbouring holdings well into the 1890s.

Now, I suspect that there may be more than simply a land/business relationship going on here. In 1895 Henry's portion of land is split in two, going to Mary O'Neill and Arthur O'Neill. I'm fairly sure that this Arthur is the same one present in the 1901 census of Dreenan with his wife Nancy (née Henry). They have a number of children that I can find, but of interest to us here is their daughter Bridget, who married a Henry Downing/Downey of Eden in 1892. He himself was the son of a William.

Now firstly, I'm not sure how or where the Eden and Dreenan branches of the Downings are connected, but I suspect with the land changes above we're likely dealing with the branch that descends from the marriage of William Downing and Matilda Downing (m. 1866, Maghera).

In 1895, the Downings appear to purchase their portion of the above land, and it is thereafter leased by 'William Downing Snr', to 'William Downing Jr.' I'm assuming that the senior William Downing listed here is the husband of Matilda; seeing as his own father William passed in 1902 and yet there is no change in the lessor name through the revisions of 1894-1919. There's always the possibility that there was indeed a change and it was simply missed due to the repeated name, but I think that's an outside chance.

I'd be very grateful if you could cast an eye over the above and see if it makes sense to you. Do I have the right bunch of Downings, here?  :)