Kirchmann - Hesse Darnstadt, Germany

[Peter78]

Peter,
I haven’t got any real answers yet, but I do have 2 things that might need some further thought ...

#1

I found Henry with Jane and a young son William in the 1871 census (see https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBZF-L9Q). The transcribed birthplace (Drakethain) is Germanic-ish, but I wanted to see the original image.

On the same page is the word “Durham” and this “D’ looks very different. Is it possible that Henry’s Birth Place could be (a bad version of) “Hackenheim” instead (or maybe some other town name)? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackenheim for more background.


#2
Where did you find that the German version of Henry Churchman’s name is "Kirchmann"? Or, did you assume that he would have literally translated it? If that is the case, I would not rule out names like Curschman, Klostermann, Christmann etc etc.

In answer to your second point, we had an idea already that the name was Kirchmann, or similar to that, through family conversations down the years. unfortunately my great grandmother passed years ago, and it gets forgotten over time. Research that has been done, at present, connects the dots so to speak...

[JustinL]

That's a great suggestion, and Hackenheim was, indeed, just inside the borders of the Grand Duchy of Hessen (see map here https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Grossherzogtum_Hessen_1832-1850_Karte_20.jpg). Interestingly, it isn't even listed in the Historical Gazetteer of Hessen.

However, although I agree that the "D" in Durham is very different; what about the "Ds" in "Dress Maker" and in "Engine Driver"? Moreover, there are a couple of examples of a capital "H" on the page (e.g. Hessen), and they don't resemble a "D".

Nevertheless, the page we can view now, is a transcript of the original enumeration forms filled out by the household heads. I have seen many 19th century hand-written documents in German, and some letters can be difficult to distinguish, but not "D" and "H".

Can we post more of the census page to the Handwriting Deciphering board, without infringing the copyright?

[TreeSpirit]

I admit that Hackenheim is far from perfect, but it seemed to be the best option for a place in Essen (and I had tried quite a few wildcarded variations) ...LOL.
BTW The "Darmstädter Hof" mentioned in the wiki page could (more or less) work with Henry's POB on the 1881 census.

[Peter78]

That's a great suggestion, and Hackenheim was, indeed, just inside the borders of the Grand Duchy of Hessen (see map here https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Grossherzogtum_Hessen_1832-1850_Karte_20.jpg). Interestingly, it isn't even listed in the Historical Gazetteer of Hessen.

However, although I agree that the "D" in Durham is very different; what about the "Ds" in "Dress Maker" and in "Engine Driver"? Moreover, there are a couple of examples of a capital "H" on the page (e.g. Hessen), and they don't resemble a "D".

Nevertheless, the page we can view now, is a transcript of the original enumeration forms filled out by the household heads. I have seen many 19th century hand-written documents in German, and some letters can be difficult to distinguish, but not "D" and "H".

Can we post more of the census page to the Handwriting Deciphering board, without infringing the copyright?

Justin, that map is pretty cool mate, love it...

[Rena]

I wondered if you knew about this website..  I found the gedcom = GEDBAS page very useful for researching German connections.  As well as searching just for a surname of just for a given name, you can even search by town name and every surname entered by an am.researcher who has an ancestor in that town is shown in the results.

http://www.genealogienetz.de/index_en.html

I realise things have changed since I started and finished my German research, which I did by looking in my local telephone directory to see if there was a "Church of Latter Day Saints" in the area (allied to familysearch) .  A phone call to ask if they could provide a micro-fiche of the parish church I was interested in and would they order a copy for me at a (then) cost of £2.50.   The earliest census was end of the year 1851 and called a "building and people count" , Some parish clergymen only gave the number of people living in his parish, others listed names of well to do people plus the number of "others".  Later end of year "counts" were far more detailed and helpfully giving religions, which saved money when approaching churches and or church archives for family records.

The Ev. Lutheran churches in the UK give far more detail than the usual parish records.  I was lucky and found my grandmother's baptism in Hull, Yorkshire, which listed that she had been named in favour of her German grandmother Sophie Ehlers in Saltzgitter - How exciting was that do you think !!! 

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be many historical Lutheran records remaining, I think the chief Lutheran church is in Liverpool which could give more information:

"The German congregation in Hull also started its existence as part of the Anglican Church. Founded in 1844 by the Bishop of Hull, it was not until four years later that it became Lutheran in Faith and Practice. Other German congregations established in this period are Manchester (1853), Bradford (1876), London-Sydenham (1875), South Shields (1879), Newcastle (1890), and Middlesbrough (1897).

https://helmut-hild-haus.de/english/archives.html

I was lucky and found my ancester was amongst a handful of Yorkshire Police Archive records of "Alien Registration". It showed he had arrived with a musician uncle when he was 10 years one day old. Although his three sons were on active duty in the Army WWII and he was married to an English woman, he still had to report to the local police station each day during WWI and also WWII until his death aged 86 in 1942.  He obviously suffered from dementia as the final police report stated he couldn't recall the name of his mother (who my own grandmother was named after).

[Greygirl]

Perhaps an anglicized version of Dreieichenhain approx 25km NE of Darmstadt?

[VanessaCh]

Hi Peter78
Kaspar Kirschmann was my great great grandfather, his son Louis was my great grandfather. I was born in Middlesbrough, my maiden name was Churchman
I’ve been trying to find more about my German ancestry for many years. I have some information but not a lot.
My friend found this for me as I’ve not been on this site before.
Vanessa

[VanessaCh]

Just to add on the Kirchmann family tree that I was given. The surname is written with an s - so literal translation cherryman. Maybe someone misheard or misspelled it. At first it didn’t seem odd as my German friend’s married name is Kirsch.
Hoping my posts are seen by the person who started this thread

[Peter78]

Hi All,

Apologies having not been on here much, double family bereavement (2022 and 2024) really took a lot out of me, and was just focussing on what research I could do.

In regards this, and my ancestor, Henry Churchman; what progression I have made is that I've been to his resting place in Linthorpe Cemetery, Middlesbrough, found a few newspaper articles from his time in Middlesbrough, and also found what could be the fact he went from Germany to America first, and briefly served in the US Army, (Philadelphia, Pennsylvania) 1862/63.

But still nothing prior - although a news report does mention his sister-in-law, Mary Churchman.