John Rees, Margaret Rees (nee Samuel) and family in 1861!

[Cyfrifydd]

Hi Roy

Yes, I have the marriage certificate.

Adulam Chapel, in the district of Llanelly.  23rd May 1861 between Daniel Thomas, 27, bachelor, master mariner in the merchant service, Baily, Llanelly, and Elizabeth Rees, 22, spinster, Ystradfai, Llanelly.  Daniel's father was William Thomas, deceased, farmer, and Elizabeth's was John Rees, Colliery Proprietor.  Witnesses Cornelius Rees and David Thomas.

It's the 'colliery proprietor' that I find strange.  He was missing from the 1861 census - could the two things be connected?  He was a farmer before 1861 and a farmer in 1871.

Cheers

Richard

[Cyfrifydd]

Hi Roy

My memory was right about Daniel being on the Sardine.  The reference is RG 9/4529, if you can access the 1861 census.

Cheers

Richard

[roycymru]

Hi Roy

Yes, I have the marriage certificate.

Adulam Chapel, in the district of Llanelly.  23rd May 1861 between Daniel Thomas, 27, bachelor, master mariner in the merchant service, Baily, Llanelly, and Elizabeth Rees, 22, spinster, Ystradfai, Llanelly.  Daniel's father was William Thomas, deceased, farmer, and Elizabeth's was John Rees, Colliery Proprietor.  Witnesses Cornelius Rees and David Thomas.

It's the 'colliery proprietor' that I find strange.  He was missing from the 1861 census - could the two things be connected?  He was a farmer before 1861 and a farmer in 1871.

Cheers

Richard

Thanks very much for this. I agree John Rees’s profession in the marriage entry is confusing as his disappearance from the 1861 census. Something unusual going on regarding the family in 1861 as his sons Jonathan (age 10) and John (23) are boarding with their sister Margaret in Glamorganshire and his daughter Elizabeth (21) is living with her uncle Cornelius. This leaves John (1811), Margaret (1812) and their other children Mary Rees (1834, who may have died after 1851, or married), David Rees (1841), William Rees (1844), Henry Rees (1846), Edward Rees (1849), and Catherine Rees (1854) missing from the 1861 census. Though David and Henry may well have been at sea, given their maritime association.

[Cyfrifydd]

Hi Roy

I think that Mary married David Williams, but I can't now find my evidence for that statement.

Catherine married John Philpott in 1873.  In 1881 they were farming Coedcywbella, Llannon, a farm of 100 acres.  But by 1891 John was a farmer but they were living at the White Lion Felinfoel, and by 1901 he was the innkeeper.  He died in 1905, she in 1907.

Thee are several unfavourable mentions of John in the Llanelly Mercury in 1897, including that he was bankrupt.  In the London Gazette of December 1897 he is described as 'formerly a farmer and publican, and now a publican'.

So might most of the Rees family upped and awayed to run a colliery?

Cheers

Richard

[roycymru]

Hi

Going back through this thread do you know which Daughter of the Farmer’s arms, Elizabeth’s father John was travelling from when he had his tragic accident?

Also, as discussed previously could you kindly provide a transcription of Elizabeth’s birth record.

With Elizabeth’s father being described as a colliery proprietor in her marriage to Daniel Thomas in 1861 I was concerned that this Elizabeth might not be the daughter of John Rees and Margaret Samuel, because you say in 1841, 1851 and 1871 he is described as a Farmer, not colliery proprietor. As previously discussed, for some reason John, his wife and some of his children are not in the 1861 census, so his profession in 1861 in unknown. However his wife’s Margaret’s brothers “the Samuel brothers{ were heavily involved in the Colliery industry so it could well be a possibility that he temporarily tried his hand in the colliery business, 20 years between 1851 and 1871 is a long time.

Elizabeth is with her uncle Cornelius in 1861 (described as Niece and living with him just before she got married). Searching back to 1851 for Elizabeth Rees’ with father John born Llanelly/Llannon around 1840 there is only 1 real candidate Elizabeth daughter of John and Margaret Samuel. There is another Elizabeth Rees with parents John and Hannah Rees born abt 1838 Llanelly, but she is with her parents in the 1861 census. So I think she is definitely the daughter of John Rees and Margaret Samuel.

[roycymru]

There is a will of John Rees, Farmer of Wayngrychydd, Llanelly. In the will he mentions his wife Elizabeth and children John, Mary, Hannah, Margaret, Cornelius, William, Daniel and Elizabeth. In 1841 an Elizabeth (70), Cornelius (30) and Daniel (25) are living at Gellylusged farm, Hengoed, Llanelly. It is reasonable to assume that Elizabeth, Cornelius and Daniel are those mentioned in the will.

Cornelius is the Cornelius of Ystradvai, uncle of Elizabeth Rees who we have already discussed and from this we have also already established her parents are John Rees and Margaret Samuel of Blaenhiraeth, later Tynyrheol. Therefore, this must be the John mentioned in the above will. Others have said instead that John son of John Rees of Wayngrychydd is John Rees (1791-1864) of Gellygaled, Hengoed. However, I don’t know what this assumption is based on, other than he is of the right age to be John and Elizabeth’s and lived in Hengoed parish, and the evidence already discussed suggests not.

A further attribution is that Elizabeth’s father John is in fact the son another of John Rees of Wayngrychydd’s children, William and therefore that his parents are William Rees and a Catherine James. I can see how this assumption might have arisen as in 1841 and 1851 William was living at Tynyrheol and John and Margaret Rees were living there in 1871. However, there is no indication Tynyrheol passed down the Rees family line as in 1861 as a Daniel Harris a Carter and William Isaac, a Shepherd’s boy were living there. Therefore, again the facts do not support this.

The Daniel Rees mentioned above I think is the Daniel Rees (of Eryos, Clyn) who married Grace Williams. He is of the right age in later censuses and his marriage record says his father was John Rees a Farmer.

Others, have attributed the other children of John Rees of Wayngrychydd to various their namesakes in census records, but I don’t know of what basis these attributions have been made.

[roycymru]

Hi

Going back through this thread do you know which Daughter of the Farmer’s arms, Elizabeth’s father John was travelling from when he had his tragic accident?

Also, as discussed previously could you kindly provide a transcription of Elizabeth’s birth record.

With Elizabeth’s father being described as a colliery proprietor in her marriage to Daniel Thomas in 1861 I was concerned that this Elizabeth might not be the daughter of John Rees and Margaret Samuel, because you say in 1841, 1851 and 1871 he is described as a Farmer, not colliery proprietor. As previously discussed, for some reason John, his wife and some of his children are not in the 1861 census, so his profession in 1861 in unknown. However his wife’s Margaret’s brothers “the Samuel brothers{ were heavily involved in the Colliery industry so it could well be a possibility that he temporarily tried his hand in the colliery business, 20 years between 1851 and 1871 is a long time.

Elizabeth is with her uncle Cornelius in 1861 (described as Niece and living with him just before she got married). Searching back to 1851 for Elizabeth Rees’ with father John born Llanelly/Llannon around 1840 there is only 1 real candidate Elizabeth daughter of John and Margaret Samuel. There is another Elizabeth Rees with parents John and Hannah Rees born abt 1838 Llanelly, but she is with her parents in the 1861 census. So I think she is definitely the daughter of John Rees and Margaret Samuel.

You are right about Mary marrying a David Williams (a blacksmith) as in 1871 they are living at the Farmers Arms, the residence that their her father was coming home from when he had his fatal accident, as mentioned earlier in this thread

[roycymru]

Trying to collate all of this into something more sensible to read (if you spot any obvious errors please let me know):

Starting at the beginning!

John Rees of Wayngrychydd wrote a will in 1829. In the will are mentioned his wife Elizabeth, sons William, John, David, Cornelius and Daniel and daughters Elizabeth, Hannah and Mary.
In 1841 his wife Elizabeth (age 70) and sons Cornelius (age 30) and Daniel (age 25) are living at Gellylysged
Cornelius then lives at Ystradvai and in 1861 his niece Elizabeth Rees born around 1840 is living with him.
In the 1851 census there are are only 2 Elizabeth Rees’ with father John, born Llanelly/Llannon. One is the daughter of John Rees and Margaret Samuel of Blaenhiraeth - Tynyrheol, the other the daughter of a John Rees and a Hannah Rees (maiden name unknown). The later Elizabeth can be discounted as she is still with her parents in 1861.
Elizabeth Rees marries Daniel Thomas in 1861 and they have children Elizabeth Margaret (1866), Hannah Katherine (Kate) (1870) and Cornelius Rees (1872). Niece Elizabeth Thomas (nee Rees) is buried with her uncle Cornelius at Adulam as is her daughter Hannah Catherine (listed as Cornelius’s grand niece).
John Rees and Margaret Samuel’s children were Margaret (1833), Mary (1834), John (1838), Elizabeth (1840), David (1841), William (1844), Henry (1846), Edward (1849), Jonathan (1851) and Catherine (1854).
It is documented that John Rees of Tynhyrheol died in a tragic accident on the way home from his daughter’s residence, Farmer’s Arms.
In 1871 John’s daughter Mary (1834) was living with her husband David Williams at the Farmer’s Arms together with their children John (1864) and Samuel (1866) (note Samuel appears on the second page of the census entry for Mary and David Williams).
David Williams and Mary Rees must die young as in 1881 their sons John and Samuel (listed as Nephews) are living with aunt Elizabeth Thomas (nee Rees). (Note: John and Samuel appear on the second page of the census entry for Elizabeth Thomas and her family in 1881).
Samuel is still living with his aunt in 1891 (as a boarder) and in 1901 is listed as a visitor.

Although Elizabeth Rees’s (1840 actually 1839) father is listed “discrepantly” as a colliery proprietor in her marriage record in 1861 (he is listed as a Farmer in 1841, 1851 and 1871), this interim change in profession must be correct or an error in the marriage record. I suspect the former, his wife Margaret Samuels extended family were involved in mining and several were Master Mariners. Therefore the lack of absence of Elizabeth’s father John, his wife and some of their children is probably explained by the fact they were “elsewhere” rather than missing from the census. The elsewhere could even include a temporary emigration as part of some new venture into mining.

Therefore I am confident at attributing the above John Rees and Cornelius Rees as sons of John of Wayngrychydd.

I am also confident at attributing Daniel Rees (1816) who married Grace Williams as the son of John of Wayngrychydd. He is living with his mother Elizabeth and brother Cornelius in 1841. His age in later censuses agrees with the 1841 entry, his father is listed as John Rees a Farmer and a witness is William Rees, presumably his brother.

As previously stated attributions of other children of John of Wayngrychydd in the census records I can neither confirm or refute as I have no evidence either way, apart from John Rees

[Cyfrifydd]

Hi Roy

Many thanks for all the work you've done on this.  I'm going to be busy until the end of the month but look forward to digesting your posts.

Cheers

Cyfrifydd