ERNEST(PHILLIP?) HOPE

[loopylou2u]

Hello!
So exciting to read this I have been at a stalemate since 1984, when I first started trying to work out my family tree.

Ruth Watt, and Adeline with James Bow is a very interesting entanglement.

Oddly enough the night I read this, I noted I had also received a msg on Ancestry -- here is tidbit of information I received from that.

"Ernest later married Sarah Towell (my great grandmother) and had eight children with her.  Essentially, we understand that Reginald was my grandmother's half-brother whom she knew of, but he was never disclosed to her as a relative, always just a "family friend".  We suspect this may be something to do some sort of shame associated with the fact that he had been married to another woman before meeting Sarah. 

We have tried going back through Ernest's family tree, however we can't find anything about him - we understand he migrated to Australia from Mumbai, India at some point in time.  My grandmother has memories of him speaking in Hindi, but that's about it."

So the Indian link has two sources - or you guys are related? and discussing family history.

By the way my name is Lu-Ann Randall - Viki Joy Hope was my mother - Her father was Reginald P Hope and Mother was Una Beryl nee Colless.  Ernest William Francis is my grandfather's Father. 
I have no family history, in that both Viki's parents were had passed by the time she was 14.

Reginald's story:
When Reginald Percival HOPE was born on 22 September 1915 in Sydney, New South Wales, his father, Ernest, was 25 and his mother, Adeline, was 24. He married Norah Ellen Trembath and they had one daughter together. He then married Una Beryl Colless and they had one daughter together. He died on 31 January 1965 at the age of 49.

[loopylou2u]

I should also note - that on Reginald and Norah's Wedding certificate, his parents were noted as Ernest Philip (one /l/) Hope and Adeline Ruth.  On his wedding certificate to Una, Reginald's father is identified as Ernest Phillip (two /l/).  As Ernest went on to marry Sarah, there is a chance that Reginald didn't really know his father thus made an error on his wedding certificates.

Thus I am curious about your note that Ernest Philip is Ernest William Frances Hope's father - I am thinking they are one in the same.

Thoughts?

I got very excited when I found that an Ann Desilva born 1892 married Ernest Hope 18 Jun 1912 Agra Bengal India, and a child born in 1915 in India ... but this is the only Ernest I found mentioned in Indian births, deaths and marriages.  Realised that it was Reginald born in 1915 .... so off on the wrong trail.

[Jsmp]

Hi all

What a bizarre thing to find a forum of people also trying to find the origins of the Hope lineage.  I am the great granddaughter of Ernest William Hope and sent Lu-Ann the message.  Unfortunately, I live in SA, with my grandmother (Ernest's daughter) in NSW, so I don't have any pictures or records to hand, but I will post when I can.

Ernest was definitely born in India (Bombay, now Mumbai).  When he came out, we don't know.  Interestingly, he was an acrobat and used to perform shows for the community (we have a photo of him doing a handstand on three chairs balancing on top of one another).  It may have been that he picked those skills up in India, but we don't know how he learnt to do those tricks.  My Nan describes him as being a very kind, gentle and loving man.  He also had malaria.  I believe he died in 1952, a few months before my Nan's 21st birthday - it was relatively sudden - he felt ill one afternoon and died that evening, but no one knew the cause of death.

He had eight children with Sarah Towell.  All but one of them had dark brown hair, dark brown eyes and somewhat dark skin (the only one that didn't we suspect was adopted by Ernest and Sarah at one point).  It is only really in my generation that the dark features have started to lessen, but these are prominent features on my Nan's side of the family.

Happy to answer any questions, but I am afraid I probably won't be of much help.  My Nan is now 89 and the last alive of her brothers and sisters - we are best friends and she has always wondered about where her Dad came from, so I would love to be able to piece it together for her.  She isn't great with computers, so if you have any questions for her, please let me know and I can ask.

[Jsmp]

I should also note - that on Reginald and Norah's Wedding certificate, his parents were noted as Ernest Philip (one /l/) Hope and Adeline Ruth.  On his wedding certificate to Una, Reginald's father is identified as Ernest Phillip (two /l/).  As Ernest went on to marry Sarah, there is a chance that Reginald didn't really know his father thus made an error on his wedding certificates.

Thus I am curious about your note that Ernest Philip is Ernest William Frances Hope's father - I am thinking they are one in the same.

Thoughts?

I got very excited when I found that an Ann Desilva born 1892 married Ernest Hope 18 Jun 1912 Agra Bengal India, and a child born in 1915 in India ... but this is the only Ernest I found mentioned in Indian births, deaths and marriages.  Realised that it was Reginald born in 1915 .... so off on the wrong trail.

Just on your point about whether Reginald knew Ernest, I understand that they were in contact after Ernest and Sarah married.  My Nan has a recollection of meeting Reginald ("Reggie") and his wife Norah and daughter Beverly.  They were introduced to my Nan as family friends and Reginald as "Reggie Turner".  My nan was maybe about 7 at this time (1931), but her and her siblings always suspected that Reggie was a relation to them - her sister once overheard Ernest and Sarah talking about how "they would explain Reggie to them".  Also because Reggie shared similar dark features to them, which weren't common around the Belmore area at that time (the kids were called racial slurs at school due to their dark features).  It was only last year that we confirmed Reggie was Ernest's son to another woman.  We actually found Beverly, and my Nan was able to get in touch with her after all these years.

[Jsmp]

Just to clarify, my Nan was born in 1931*

[loopylou2u]

In regards to Reggie knowing Ernest - I was speaking from a more intimate level. How often do middle names come up in conversation? I have heard that he visited, but that is very different from living and growing up within a family :-) those nuances may not come up.  Or did Ernest actually attend his son's weddings - and wrote down the wrong middle name himself?

Someone else directed me to seek out Beverly :-) I was just unsure how much connection she also had with her biological dad, but then she was 26 year old when her dad past.  Plus when I was first doing this and found Beverly I was a teenager, and the information I got from Legacy was that her name was Joyce Agnes, Beverly had been crossed out. So definitely a trail that I should look into :-)

[haney]

Hi I cannot believe someone replied to this message/messages who is actually related.  I am Rodneys aunty by marriage and I tried to take on this research because I found it so fascinating.  Only on Xmas day did Rodney mention to me the story of the chair and the balancing act.  Absolutely amazing, surely there must be some way we can work out the origins of Ernest HOPE. I have a few certificates I purchased.  Will read over everything again now.  You must be Betty's granddaughter is that correct.  Wow great to speak with you.  Regards Dianna

[haney]

Hi Jsmp.  Do you think you could please ask your Grandmother about the story of the child who was burnt/killed in the fire.  I believe/think she may have been the sister of Ernest William Francis HOPE your Great Grandfather or some relative at least.  I looked everywhere in the trove newspaper site but could not find anything.  The same with trying to find Ernest's birth in NSW.  Just not there!!  Of course he could have been born anywhere!!! Anyway will be fun to see what turns up, I know Betty had a DNA test (according to your cousin Rodney) and it showed 25% Indian blood, was that correct. Anyway hope we can find out more about Ernie. LOL.  Regards Dianna

[Jsmp]

Hi I cannot believe someone replied to this message/messages who is actually related.  I am Rodneys aunty by marriage and I tried to take on this research because I found it so fascinating.  Only on Xmas day did Rodney mention to me the story of the chair and the balancing act.  Absolutely amazing, surely there must be some way we can work out the origins of Ernest HOPE. I have a few certificates I purchased.  Will read over everything again now.  You must be Betty's granddaughter is that correct.  Wow great to speak with you.  Regards Dianna

Hi Dianna, yes I am Betty's granddaughter.  One of my middle names is "Sarah" - after Sarah Jane Towell.  I am 27 in May, and saw Rodney for the first time since I was a little girl last year at Aunty Marge and Uncle Cyril's sending off (you can definitely see the Indian blood in Rodney!).

I am sure there must be something out there that could lead us on the right track - I am thinking military records at least.  I suspect Ernest W F Hope's father was a British soldier stationed in Bombay (Mumbai) - I can't think of another situation that would put him in India in the mid to late 1800s.  His mother must have been Indian given his surname. Another piece of information I know of that shows the Indian connection is that Ernest W F Hope used to call Sarah Jane "Memsaab" as a nickname, which means a woman in a position of authority (haha!).  We don't know how they met, but apparently Sarah's family didn't speak with her (other than her brother), sadly because Ernest was a brown man.

Hi Jsmp.  Do you think you could please ask your Grandmother about the story of the child who was burnt/killed in the fire.  I believe/think she may have been the sister of Ernest William Francis HOPE your Great Grandfather or some relative at least.  I looked everywhere in the trove newspaper site but could not find anything.  The same with trying to find Ernest's birth in NSW.  Just not there!!  Of course he could have been born anywhere!!! Anyway will be fun to see what turns up, I know Betty had a DNA test (according to your cousin Rodney) and it showed 25% Indian blood, was that correct. Anyway hope we can find out more about Ernie. LOL.  Regards Dianna

I have heard the story about his sister dying in the fire, but nothing more than that.  My Nan never met her or knew of her.  I will ask her about it when I speak to her today (we speak every day in case you have more questions).  Yes, she had the DNA test showing 25% Indian (slight mix of North and South India), I will send you a copy.

When I spoke with Beverly Hope (Reginald's daughter to Norah), she also understood Ernest performed at the Tivoli Theatre at one point with his acrobatics, but I haven't been able to find anything that puts him as a performer there.