Death of Annie Keen, formerly Brown, nee Johnston, 1932

[jonwarrn]

I won't go through the rest!
Changing tack, if Annie was married to the George Marsden whose wife Hannah Bertha died 1915 (not saying she was, only if), and if he died before her, I have found one possibility that just might be him(?)

This is likely to be his baptism, 12 April 1874, Singleton
Parents John and Sarah Ann, father a Joiner
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DYQV-TM

Birth reg
MARSDEN, GEORGE       
Mother's Maiden Surname: GRIBBIN 
GRO Reference: 1874  J Quarter in FYLDE  Volume 08E  Page 697

So the death is this one
March 1932 Barton upon Irwell 8c 768
Marsden, George
age 57

The age on death could be just about right, depends on his exact date of birth
Burial likely to be
George Marsden, 17 March 1932, Greater Manchester
Cemetery is Weaste
10 others in grave.

Hannah Bertha was buried at Weaste, doesn't say that anybody is buried with her. It seems the likeliest place for George to be buried.

Barton upon Irwell RD details
https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/barton%20upon%20irwell.html

Joseph Henry Beech is one of those with the same GRO ref. There is a probate record and he died at the Davyhulme Cottage Hospital, Manchester, 15 March 1932.
Confirms that the death of George was likely in March, and gives an idea of location (not necessarily at the exact same place of course!)

Sadly there are no Manchester newspapers on BNA for 1932.
Apologies if this is the wrong George (for both Annie, and for the HB family!)
Joh

[Peggy13]

I think you just might be right, John. I paid for the burial register scan for this George who was buried 17 March 1932 but not sure yet if I am any the wiser. George was 57 and died at Park Hospital, Davyhulme. I don't recognise any names of the others buried in that grave at Weaste which include Eric McCabe, Alan Currie, Walter Davies,Kenneth Shelton, May Berry, Mary Sappa, James Henry Brown, Sarah Clough, Jessie Shaw, Margaret Carroll (same burial date) and George.
I think I must order the marriage record for Annie and George in 1917.
thanks for all your wonderful Help.And for the info about Florence Marsden's marriage.
Peggy

[Peggy13]

I ordered the death certificate for George Marsden who was buried Mar 17, 1932. We shall see!!

[jonwarrn]

Good luck!
I am a bit nervous, it is speculative. But a hospital death does mean at least that it could be the right man (Annie's husband, HB's husband, or both!)
Will keep fingers crossed.
John

[Peggy13]

It will be interesting to see the death certificate, due Dec 10, but usually arrives a day or so early. I suspect that even if we found the right George, Annie and George were not together. Her grandson remembered Annie but not a step-grandfather, whether it be Robert Bernard Keen, who would not be with Annie when the grandson was born if she married George in 1917, or whether it be George. Her grandson had not met a step-grandfather.
I have been trying to find Annie and George together, in 1921 or 1931,but not sure when the last English census was taken. Both would be deceased before 1939.
Peggy

[jonwarrn]

Hi
That has been one of my doubts about George of 53 Manchester Street. It was quite a large family that he had, and if the Browns were joined up with it then probably you, or someone you know, would have had some knowledge of that fact (even if you didn't know exactly which family it was)

The 1921 census should be released in early 2022. It will be only on findmypast, and I expect that initially it will be some kind of pay per view and not included in their subs.
The 1931 census was sadly lost in a fire in WW2 (not as a result of enemy action, which somehow seems to make it worse)

I was going to say that we don't have any Salford electoral registers online, but in fact I now realise we do -  on findmypast again. The answer may be there! I don't have access

Live as it happens!
Salford South Division is I think what we need. Loads of Annie Marsdens in the free index, which you can see if you are at least registered as a free member (like me!)
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-Records/england-and-wales-electoral-registers-1920-1932

No way to tell who they are from the index.
There is another database on there, England & Wales, Electoral Registers 1832-1932. On this there are no names given in the results pages, and instead you get a link to the image. In the past it has picked up anything on the page (transcribed via optical character recognition I guess), so look for John Smith, and you not only get all of them, but any page hit where there is a John, and also a Smith on it. Not good!
It could be manipulated via quotation marks, keywords, and comparing the image number, but they seem to have taken the image numbers away.

Entering "Marsden George" in the surname box, and "Manchester Street" in the keyword box, it tells me there are no results. Taking off the quotation marks and it then says 28 results (but is it still reliable then?)
Put the quotations back, and forcing it against its will to give me some results (I mean click on no results) and there are actually 6.
Two for 1918, three for 1919 (spring and autumn) and one for 1923
I think there may be an extra George in there, son George William perhaps?

Then looking for "Marsden Annie" and "Manchester Street",  there are 4 results (1918, 1919 x 2, spring and autumn, and 1923.
That makes sense with two electoral registers per year for a while from 1919. And it's picked her up for the same years. Encouraging.
 
Theoretically it means that there should be an Annie Marsden on a page where the OCR text machine has also picked up Manchester Street. But without seeing it I can't be 100% sure of course.

The 1920-32 database, better transcribed, no doubt will pick them up in every year wherever they were!
But using the keywords on the other one gives us hope that there was an Annie with George in Manchester Street.

They also have the 1933 Manchester + Salford directory on there, so a bit later than the one on ancestry. Again when you search the index the results give no names, only a link to an image.

EDIT Deleted the last bit, got it wrong!

John

[jonwarrn]

Now I'm picking up a possible Annie Marsden in Kellett Street in 1930.
Perhaps I've got it all wrong. Oh dear!
Eleanor Turner is there in the 20's and was listed at 2a in the 1929 directory.
If there had been no coronavirus I'd have been able to pop to the library (not at night of course!) and see it all.

I think best wait for that death cert! At least we now know the electorals are online. George Harry Brown is there every year in Salford South, 1920 to 1931, so Annie is there somewhere!

[Peggy13]

Oh boy. This boggles my mind. I did try to find Annie and/or George but not really making progress. I don't have a subscription to findmypast either but I do have access to the Library Edition of  Ancestry with its limited info. Didn't have any luck there either. I will wait until I get George's death record and proceed from there. You have certainly put a lot of effort into helping me and Annie's descendants and I do thank you profusely.
I wish one could pay for an individual record on findmypast but they want a minimum of a 3 month subscription. I tried to order Annie's marriage via Gro.gov.uk, but they don't seem to offer an online order for marriages with the option of receiving the certificate as a PDF which lessens the cost. I only see the option for births and deaths which I have used.
Thanks again. Oh, I have just seen your latest find for Annie. You are terrific. I  will wait for death certificate now. It is strange that Annie's grandson didn't know a step-grandfather which makes me think Annie and George did not live together.
Peggy

[jonwarrn]

Hi
They occasionally have free weekends on there, so hopefully one way or another you will see them eventually.

You know, if it is the right George I think you may be right about a split between him and Annie.
I have been having one last play with the electoral registers 1832-1932 database, this time using as keywords some of the names nearest to George Marsden in Manchester Street from the 1929 Manchester/Salford directory.
Tittle, Sweeney, Holgate. Not so common names. And if Manchester Street sometimes went over two pages on the electoral register they are more likely to be on the same page.
I can get George Marsden up to 1930
But nothing gets Annie Marsden past 1923!
John

P.S. Ancestry are said to be adding more electoral registers this month. For eight places apparently. No idea where, but hopefully lots of us will find at least one of them useful!