Tollerfields in Alverstoke

[Little Nell]

Hi frirish

Can I go back to your first post please, for some clarification?

You said that John Tollerfield was apparently born in Portsmouth (Hampshire) cir 1848, but then switched your focus to Dorset.  Where did the possibility of Portsmouth or then Alverstoke first come from?

In your last post, you said that all census records indicate that John Thomas was born in Plymouth Hampshire.  Is that an error?  Plymouth is in Devon, the other side of Dorset which is where Wareham is.

On a quick recce, there is no John Tollerfield in the 1851 census born around 1848 in Hampshire - or Devon. 

Do you have the information on the births in Dorset?  There is a John Thomas Tollerfield b 1843 (mms Courtney) as well as the John born in 1849 (mms Baggs).

Since all three counties are on the south coast, I would not rule out any links between the various Tollerfield groups.  I personally have ancestors who move from Dorset to Portsmouth and then some of their children married in Plymouth.

But what I would do is check, check and check again against original records rather than trees found on Ancestry.  They may provide clues that might be worth following up, but that would be my limit.

My brain is definitely fried here - the heat is just too much to pick my way through this!

Nell

[Little Nell]

From your last post:

Pauline Jane Lydia (not Ludell) Vale (Vail, Vaile) Lethbridge was added for some reason.
Bapt: June 4 1868 Everton
Death: Dec 9 1895 Everton
Spouse: John Thomas Tollerfield 9 April 1873
Parents William Vail and Lydia Jane Hartley

The original parish register entry for that marriage can be found on FamilySearch here:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GYZR-85N?i=390&cat=488464

The father's name is not William Vail and I can't see Vale or Vail on the entry.  Do you actually have this?  I have attached the record, just in case you don't have it.  Her surname is very definitely Lethbridge, and there is no Lydia either.  It does look like Ludell to me.

May I ask where the information on her parents come from?  The appearance of Vail/Vale seems to be causing no end of confusion. 

Nell

[Little Nell]

The occupation of Benjamin Lethbridge, the father of Emily Pauline who married Richard Mills is apparently a dancing master. 

Nell

[frirish]

1881 RG11/ 3661/90 p 12
21 Seacome St Everton
John Tollerfield Head 33 Seaman Winchman S F S S M b Portsmouth, Hampshire, England

Pauline Tollerfield   26   1855 (ACTUALLY 1853)
John Edwd. Tollerfield   5
Pauline Tollerfield   2
Mary A. Vale   48   mother-in-law.
It stands to reason that Pauline the 26 year old has the surname Vale.
What year was Lethbridge born in? Was her mother in law a Mary Ann?
And did her John Thomas Tollerfield from from Porstmouth?

Moderator comment: edited to remove cut & paste.  Please transcribe what you see.  Thanks

[frirish]

This line is making me dopey and obvious things are confusing me! I have researched the Dorset line up until 1790's when Poor laws were forcing them to move for town to town in Dorset. ( I did not research the Lethbridge line.) 
My rule of thumb is to disprove other people's trees and that has served me well for over 20 + years!
The geography is what is tripping me up as this is my first foray into southern England. It is hard to get data on migratory patterns.
I do know it was relatively easy to get employment in Portsmouth so it certainly could have been a magnet for Tollerfields in every county. More background research required on my part.
 

[mckha489]

Help Carole W and amondg

Am I clutching at straws?

LETHBRIDGE, MARY  JANE mmn SUDELL 
GRO Reference: 1855  S Quarter in LIVERPOOL  Volume 08B  Page 211

I would say not.
Fits with that marriage if you read it as Pauline Mary Jane Sudell Lethbridge. Which I think you can.

[mckha489]

In 1891 in this household

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:737L-C6Z. (John & Pauline and family)

Are also
William Vale   Husband   Male   56   Mariner.  Warwickshire
Mary Ann Vale   Wife   Female   56   Lancashire

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:737L-1PZ

[CaroleW]

Let's look at it from a different angle as nothing found by anybody who has replied supports a marriage of John Tollerfield to Pauline Vale.  There are no Tollerfield births with a mmn of Vale either

Where does John Tollerfield fit in your FH?

Are you descended from one of his children?  If so - please give full details - name/birthyear/birthplace

Have you found that child's birth reg on freebmd.

Have you then checked GRO online for the mothers maiden name or have you bought a copy of the child's birth cert?

[Little Nell]

Hi frirish

OK, granted 1881 says born Portsmouth Hampshire, but what about 1871, 1861 and 1851? Is there a birth in Hampshire for John Tollerfield or variant between 1845 and 1850?

 

Mary A. Vale   48   mother-in-law.
It stands to reason that Pauline the 26 year old has the surname Vale.

Not necessarily.  The relationship is to the head of the household, so it would seem that Mary A is Pauline's mother.  But what if she was widowed and had remarried to become Vale?  Have you ruled that out.  CaroleW raised this possibility before.

The marriage date that you quoted in 1873, 9th April clearly shows John Tolerfield marrying Pauline Lethbridge.  I can't see Vale/Vail on that record.  It stretches credulity that there is another Tollerfield marriage on the same date in the same registration district to another Pauline.  So I'm wondering where the information that her parents were William Vail and Lydia Jane Hartley come from that you quoted?  And Lydia Jane is obviously not Mary A Vale.

I can see William Vale (mariner) and Mary A Vale his wife listed in 1891 in the same household as the Tollerfields.  But it doesn't give the relationship to the head of the household, so that doesn't really help.  I've not been able to find William prior to this with any certainty or Mary A. 

The children's birth registrations are in the official GRO indexes https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
I've managed to check three of them, but the site is having a melt-down this evening and keeps throwing up a time-out error
John Edward mms Vale
Pauline mms Lethbridge
Marion (1889) mms Lethbridge

So this would seem to be where the confusion arises.  Someone gave the registrar that information when they registered the births.  Unfortunately, without sight of the certificates to see who the informant was in each case, it is very hard to tell why that information was given.

However this does not help you with your original query about Hampshire versus Dorset Tollerfields.  I'm still looking for the Hampshire John in the GRO indexes and he just isn't there.

You are correct in thinking that Portsmouth was a magnet for those looking for work, but it was largely connected with Royal Navy vessels rather than commercial ships.

Nell