Author Topic: Reinhold or Reginald Bertram, builder/contractor, London early 1900s  (Read 1465 times)

Offline ValJJJ

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Reinhold or Reginald Bertram, builder/contractor, London early 1900s
« on: Thursday 23 July 20 11:35 BST (UK) »
This connects with a thread here - the last few pages are relevant, referring to Alice Maud Mary Crook and her marriage to Reinhold Bertram.  https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=833172.msg6978593#msg6978593

Reinhold Bertram is a bit of a mystery, but Rootschatter jonw65 found him in some directories and I wonder if someone can point me to any other sources?

From his marriage cert in Oct 1911, he was a builder and contractor, and his father of the same name was a builder and decorator.

The English equivalent of Reinhold is Reginald, and I have found a Reginald Bertram, builder, in 1910 in a Post Office directory, builder, at 80 Cleveland St - this side of the street was in St Pancras; the other side of the street in St Marylebone.  This person might be the father or son?

Reinhold Bertram was shown as a German national in the 1911 census, born abt 1877, living in Lanark Villas, Paddington with his wife Bertha, a German national, born abt 1884, and two children, Oscar born abt 1909 in Marylebone, and Brunhilde born abt 1907 in St Pancras.  Married about 1905. 3 children, 2 living. 

From the GRO birth indexes, Bertha's maiden name was recorded as Krache for her firstborn, Wolfgang, born and died in Q3 1906 registered in Pancras.  For the other two children, she is recorded as Krahe.

I have discovered that if someone has a German father, they are automatically considered a German national, wherever they were born.  So I don't know where Reinhold B and Bertha were born or married, as they aren't in the freeBMD or GRO indexes.

In October 1911, Reinhold Bertram, bachelor, 34, married Alice Maud Mary Crook, 29, in Paddington, but I can't find a death for Bertha so perhaps they went abroad, or she remarried, or they were never married in the first place.  That 1921 census will be fascinating!

They had one child, George, born 1912 but doesn't appear in any further records that I can find.  Mrs Bertram nee Crook appears on the electoral roll from 1918 to 1922 for 11 Hetley Rd, Hammersmith and Shepherd's Bush, Middx, so would have been resident there from late in 1917 to qualify.  She presumably qualified because she divorced or her husband died (but he isn't in the death indexes) and she regained her British nationality.  When she died, in 1931, the probate doc stated that she was a widow.

Reinhold B is not listed in any electoral registers (presumably because German) but is listed in street directories for 1917, and the 1919-20 directory at 11 Hetley Rd, but not 1920-21. 

I'm wondering if he or his father might show up in trade or street directories earlier than 1910.

Thanks for reading all this.
Crook, Bannister, Warren

Offline jorose

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Re: Reinhold or Reginald Bertram, builder/contractor, London early 1900s
« Reply #1 on: Monday 27 July 20 00:57 BST (UK) »
Index to internment records are here:
https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Search/#/1/1/245/1025042/German/Civilian/Bertram
"All XL VIII - 10" on his card leads us to this list (may have to scroll down quite a way)
https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/1025042/937/48/

I have also tried to attach the page with his name on:
11 Heatly Road, Shepherds Bush was his last address
Wilsnack, Brandenburg was his birthplace.
Interned in "Stfd"
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline ValJJJ

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Re: Reinhold or Reginald Bertram, builder/contractor, London early 1900s
« Reply #2 on: Monday 27 July 20 08:26 BST (UK) »
Wow, how did you find that?  And how sure is it that it's the correct Reinhold?  No idea how common the name Reinhold Bertram was/is.

I did know about Hetley Rd, Shepherds Bush - another Rootschatter on the thread I linked to found his wife there on the electoral roll, so then looked at Kelly's for earlier years and found him listed there.  I looked at a few more too.

ADD: Sorry now I've seen the records, I can see that Hetley Rd links him, and that his age, 38, also links him. I had wondered if he would have been interned. 

Thanks very much.
Val
Crook, Bannister, Warren

Offline ValJJJ

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Re: Reinhold or Reginald Bertram, builder/contractor, London early 1900s
« Reply #3 on: Monday 27 July 20 10:00 BST (UK) »
These internment records are so useful and I should have thought of looking for them.  But as he was listed in the 1917 Kelly's, which I thought would have been compiled in 1916, I thought that perhaps he hadn't been interned.

Perhaps he was released before the end of the war?

Really helpful to know his place of birth too.
Crook, Bannister, Warren


Offline ValJJJ

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Re: Reinhold or Reginald Bertram, builder/contractor, London early 1900s
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 28 July 20 11:10 BST (UK) »
Jorose, you've helped me unlock a further piece of family history.

I wrote to the town hall of Bad Wilsnack to ask if they had a birth record, and they sent it the next day!  A photo of the document, plus a transcription in case I found it hard to read, which was very kind of them.  All in German of course - I used https://context.reverso.net/translation to cobble together a simple message to the town hall (obviously they understood it even though it was probably really poor German), and to translate what they sent back.

Before the signed registrar appeared today, according to the individual, the worker Johann Christian Bertram, resident in Wilsnack, and indicated that of the unmarried Wilhelmine Bertram, his daughter, evangelical religion, resident with the declarant.
On (12) twelfth March of the year a thousand eight hundred seventy and seven, in the afternoon at (3) three o'clock a child, male gender, was born, who was given the first name, Reinhold.


I did read advice somewhere a while ago that if the same name is given for the groom and the groom's father on a marriage cert, then it's likely to be a mistake.  In Reinhold's case, it is fiction, giving his father's name as Reinhold Bertram, when clearly it wasn't Bertram. Possibly Reinhold.

So now I know his mother's name and a grandfather's.
Crook, Bannister, Warren

Offline ValJJJ

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Re: Reinhold or Reginald Bertram, builder/contractor, London early 1900s
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 28 July 20 14:43 BST (UK) »
The birth record had another couple of notes added later, which I've just translated.

Married on 30.12.1942 in Hamburg, registry office 3 for the second time, family register no 609/42
Died on 1.6.1953 in Hamburg, registry office Hamburg Neustadt no 83/1953


Very useful cross referencing.  So I've written to the Hamburg reg office to see what they can tell me.

I hope it'll have details of his first marriage.  Will it be to Bertha Kra(c)he or to Maud Crook?

Crook, Bannister, Warren

Offline ValJJJ

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Re: Reinhold or Reginald Bertram, builder/contractor, London early 1900s
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 08 November 20 12:30 GMT (UK) »
An update - the record office in Hamburg could supply me with the records but for a fee, so I declined, as it has no bearing on my family history.  Just being nosy and dotting 'i's and crossing 't's for completeness.

I do suspect that the first marriage indicated will be to Maud, which I already have information about, so don't want to pay for that!
Crook, Bannister, Warren

Offline ValJJJ

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Re: Reinhold or Reginald Bertram, builder/contractor, London early 1900s
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 02 April 25 22:34 BST (UK) »
1921 census revealed that George Bertram was at a boarding school in Margate, but the school was bombed in the war so no records likely.  George Bertam searches are in a different thread https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=835085.0

1921 census did not come up with Bertha (born abt 1884 Germany), Oskar or Brunhilde Bertram so that was disappointing. Perhaps Bertha Kra(c)he/Bertram remarried or the whole family had left the country.  Not that I can find a marriage other than a Bertha S Bertram marrying a Jean L Got or Gob in Bootle in 1920.  But I can't find that couple in the 1921 census either.  Perhaps not looking hard enough?
Crook, Bannister, Warren

Offline ValJJJ

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Re: Reinhold or Reginald Bertram, builder/contractor, London early 1900s
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 03 April 25 15:31 BST (UK) »
Does anyone know if Germany has a similar Find a Will online service to the UK's?  If he had a will that might shed some light.
Crook, Bannister, Warren