Author Topic: Fredolin and Elizabetha Schmeider aboard the Fanny Kirchner from Germany in 1858  (Read 6352 times)

Offline sparrett

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Re: Fredolin and Elizabetha Schmeider aboard the Fanny Kirchner from Germany in 1858
« Reply #45 on: Sunday 04 January 26 02:44 GMT (UK) »
Hi
It is good to hear that you have been able to let go of previous convictions and move to more useful directions than old family stories, which get twisted over time. (No offence is intended in this reflection) ;)

 I wish you luck in your search for a full listing of passengers on the ARMIN.

Returning to my reply#41 this thread, the confusion possibly arose because  the Agents for Armin were KIRCHNER and CO


This is probably the manifest you have. A statement of the number of men, women girls and boys categorised as German immigrants from Germany.


Original
https://marinersandships.com.au/1858/11/media/025arm.gif
Transcribed
https://marinersandships.com.au/1858/11/025arm.htm

It is likely there will be no further documented evidence EDIT [of passenger details] of this arrival.

Sue
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline sparrett

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Re: Fredolin and Elizabetha Schmeider aboard the Fanny Kirchner from Germany in 1858
« Reply #46 on: Sunday 04 January 26 04:54 GMT (UK) »



I am now focusing everything on the ship Armin (or Arnim). I have discovered a major clue: while some shipping lists only note two passengers, the official 1859 Health Officer’s Report for Port Jackson proves there were actually 292 passengers on board. Because of the smallpox, they were held at the Quarantine Station and weren't officially cleared to land until February 1859. This matches my great-grandfather Carl’s birth and every word my father ever told me.



The Armin departed NSW  Fri Jan 21, 1859. For NZ.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13015158?searchTerm=%22armin%22

So likely he was born at the Quarantine Station, though I would say that 3 months detention there seems lengthy if he did not set foot on Aust soil until February.
Sue
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline sparrett

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Re: Fredolin and Elizabetha Schmeider aboard the Fanny Kirchner from Germany in 1858
« Reply #47 on: Sunday 04 January 26 07:24 GMT (UK) »
You know it is impossible for him to be born 16 Feb 1859 because his brother was born in May 1859 in


Debra  :)

Hopefully this observation from Debra remains with you.
The ARMIN left Australia before the supposed birthdate of your man.

The next child to the couple Wilhelm was born in May 1859 (#8139).

Purchasing a transcription of the birth of Wilhelm may at least give you the correct birth order of the children.

Sue
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Neale1961

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Re: Fredolin and Elizabetha Schmeider aboard the Fanny Kirchner from Germany in 1858
« Reply #48 on: Sunday 04 January 26 08:29 GMT (UK) »
It looks as if there wasn't a full list of passengers on the Armin coming into NSW

There may have been a list of passengers leaving in German archives.
Milligan - Jardine – Glencross – Dinwoodie - Brown: (Dumfriesshire & Kirkcudbrightshire)
Clark – Faulds – Cuthbertson – Bryson – Wilson: (Ayrshire & Renfrewshire)
Neale – Cater – Kinder - Harrison: (Warwickshire & Queensland)
Roberts - Spry: (Cornwall, Middlesex & Queensland)
Munster: (Schleswig-Holstein & Queensland) and Plate: (Braunschweig, Neubruck & Queensland & New York)


Offline sparrett

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Re: Fredolin and Elizabetha Schmeider aboard the Fanny Kirchner from Germany in 1858
« Reply #49 on: Sunday 04 January 26 09:02 GMT (UK) »
Hi Neale 1961.
This would be the same document I offered as a link in reply #45

I think Leisa mentioned that the outward German records were lost in WW2

Frustrating :-\

Sue
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Neale1961

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Re: Fredolin and Elizabetha Schmeider aboard the Fanny Kirchner from Germany in 1858
« Reply #50 on: Sunday 04 January 26 09:07 GMT (UK) »
Sorry, I didn't realise you had posted it.  :)
Yes, frustrating indeed.
Milligan - Jardine – Glencross – Dinwoodie - Brown: (Dumfriesshire & Kirkcudbrightshire)
Clark – Faulds – Cuthbertson – Bryson – Wilson: (Ayrshire & Renfrewshire)
Neale – Cater – Kinder - Harrison: (Warwickshire & Queensland)
Roberts - Spry: (Cornwall, Middlesex & Queensland)
Munster: (Schleswig-Holstein & Queensland) and Plate: (Braunschweig, Neubruck & Queensland & New York)

Offline Leisa

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Re: Fredolin and Elizabetha Schmeider aboard the Fanny Kirchner from Germany in 1858
« Reply #51 on: Sunday 04 January 26 12:55 GMT (UK) »
Dear Sue and Jerry, and everyone else who has contributed,

I wanted to check back in and provide an update on my search. Before I go any further, I want to send my most heartfelt thanks to all of you who have helped me so far. In particular, Sue and Jerry, I want to acknowledge your previous help and the links for shipping records and suggestions you provided. I realise now there were several details I needed to process and be reminded about before sending this post, and I am so grateful for your patience and for pointing me in the right direction.

What I’ve done so far:
Based on the clues found here, I have officially ordered the birth and death certificates for Wilhelm. I am doing this with the understanding that these Queensland records may not be 100% accurate. I know that certificates from this era are only as reliable as the informant’s knowledge—especially for immigrants whose families may not have known the exact German village of origin. I’m also mindful of potential anglicisation or misspellings of our surname by officials at the time.
Additionally, I have put in a request with our state archives for Fredolin’s application for naturalisation. I am hopeful this document might explicitly name the ship he arrived on, which would be a massive breakthrough for the family tree.

What I’m planning next:
I haven’t emailed the German archives as yet, but I will be contacting the German Federal Archives (Bundesarchiv) and the Arolsen Archives soon. I want to ensure I’ve left no stone unturned in the old country, specifically looking for parish records or exit papers that might match the voyage of the Armin (often transcribed as the Army, Armen, or Harmein).

Information I’ve gathered regarding Carl’s birth:
The Ship and Voyage: I am focusing on the Armin (Master: Capt. Sommer), which arrived in Port Jackson in November 1858 but was still in port through Jan/Feb 1859. I’ve learned there were 10 births on board during that voyage.
I have never been able to find a birth certificate for my great-grandfather Carl, but I am now wondering if he was actually born in early 1859 while the family was in isolation. Because of a reported case of smallpox on board, the passengers were moved to the North Head Quarantine Station at Spring Cove.

I now understand they were kept in a "liminal state" in barracks and tents, segregated between the Healthy Ground and Sick Ground. This explains why I haven't found a standard birth record; if he was born there in Jan/Feb 1859, his record would likely be in the Marine Registers (M-prefix) rather than the standard civil registration, or perhaps listed simply as "Quarantine Station." This theory finally makes sense of the 1859 date in our family records!

I am feeling so much more hopeful now. This community is amazing, and I truly appreciate the time you took to help me find these vital pieces of my family puzzle. I’ll be sure to update you all again once the certificates and naturalisation papers arrive!

With much gratitude and appreciation,
Leisa




Online davecapps

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Re: Fredolin and Elizabetha Schmeider aboard the Fanny Kirchner from Germany in 1858
« Reply #52 on: Sunday 04 January 26 13:12 GMT (UK) »
I will be contacting the German Federal Archives (Bundesarchiv) and the Arolsen Archives soon.
Quote

What Are you looking for in the German archives?
To save me reading all the old posts
Give me names, places and Dates and I’ll See what I can find
Dave

Offline Leisa

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Re: Fredolin and Elizabetha Schmeider aboard the Fanny Kirchner from Germany in 1858
« Reply #53 on: Sunday 04 January 26 13:35 GMT (UK) »
Oh my goodness!

Can I marry you?  LOL.

Time for bed now after a long day spent well with my family, hence the late night posts that keep me awake at night knowing I have this puzzle not solved.

Talk soon Dave x