The end of hibernation

[Nick_Ips]

Why can't all the covid cases be moved to them, so freeing up the hospitals for elective surgery and other medical procedures? As covid patients aren't allowed visitors, it doesn't matter how far from home they are!

From what I understand there are three issues around resumption of elective surgery, all of them based on the increased risks if a surgical patient catches Covid during their treatment.

1) The risk of the patient already being infected and bringing infection into the facility.
2) The risk of staff having the infection and passing it on to patients.
3) The risk of the NHS being sued for millions if someone catches Covid and dies.

The problem is that moving Covid patients elsewhere doesn't significantly reduce these risks. But one of the things which is being done is to establish "COVID-light" facilities in which minimising the risks is attempted.

In theory it should be possible to deal with the first risk - by isolating and testing patients before and on admission. The second risk can be managed, but to an extent it will require some personal sacrifice by staff (e.g. self-isolating, enhanced social distancing).

But it does require the reconfiguration of NHS services as I mentioned in my previous post.

And I suspect the third risk is the one receiving most attention from NHS management.

With hindsight I wonder how many policymakers are regretting the loss - due to progress - of the distinction between 'General' and 'Isolation' hospitals? Or the amalgamation of local hospitals into super-hospitals.  Post-Covid there is some re-thinking required.

[Nick_Ips]

One of my friends has lost her confidence during this time and is quite depressed after living this recent reclusive life. She is too afraid to go out just for a walk down the street.
Somehow, there has to be a balance between the medical, physical and mental effects of this hibernation and individual risk assessment.
By asking people not to go out or meet up to protect one section of the community, you are putting another group at risk.

That is absolutely the key issue.

Personally I am quite comfortable being at home, I have no desire to go and sit on a hot beach and shopping is something I do for essentials only at any time.  (And it does perhaps help that my local library service is providing free Ancestry access at home  )

But I do follow several forums other than Rootschat and have observed (not surprisingly) that Rootschat is somewhat more conservative in the approach people think should be adopted, in comparison to some of the other forums.

I don't agree with a lot of what is said on those other forums (e.g. objections to wearing facemasks), but I do appreciate the wide variety of views.

Dismissing people as "idiots" and "stupid" just because they have a different perspective on the situation suggests there is a two-way lack of empathy and understanding.

[LizzieL]

Dismissing people as "idiots" and "stupid" just because they have a different perspective on the situation suggests there is a two-way lack of empathy and understanding.

Having a different perspective is one thing, but breaking the law isn't a matter of personal choice. If people want to go to the beach, then they should respect social distancing rules. They should use the public toilets (they were open in Bournemouth) not urinate and defecate on the beach and behind beach huts. But of course they have a different perspective on hygiene and decent behaviour and the rest of us should have empathy and understanding.  A record number of parking fines were handed out for people parking illegally, but of course we must understand people must park somewhere and when the official car parks are full,  they need to park across people's drives, restrict the highways, impede the emergency services, because that is their right and we must empathise with their difficulties. Three people were stabbed yesterday and needed hospital treatment (all from London according to Dorset police). A few weeks ago at Durdle Door beach, there were four injuries, mostly due to "tombstoning", an incident that required Lulworth coastguard rescue team, Kimmeridge coastguard, Hill Head Coastguard RT (Gosport), one of the Weymouth lifeboats, Dorset and Somerset Air ambulance and two SAR coastguard helicopters, one from Lee-on Solent and the other from St Asath in Wales. This is in addition to the local police and land ambulance service. Two casualties had to be taken to the major trauma unit in Southampton (a different county) because there was none available in Dorset. All those resources for four people in the middle of a pandemic, whose injuries were entirely down to their own behaviour. But of course I must have empathy and understanding because they have a different perspective on what is reasonable behaviour. At least this week Durdle Door didn't have any incidents like that, it was just litter and excrement they left.   

[heywood]

It is beyond understanding that some people behave in such a destructive and filthy way with regard to the beaches and there seems, at the moment, to be no consequence to their actions.
Members of the government have ‘warned’ that beaches will be closed and  ‘warned’ about rises in infection if we don’t conform.
The PM has said today:
“it's crucial that people understand that on 4 July we get this right, that we do this in a balanced way, and we recognise the risks”

It’s 26th June today- we have a while to go until his easing of the lockdown should begin.

Downing Street has ceased the briefings and the PM has given details of where we can find the charts etc via a tweet.

[jillruss]

I long ago accepted that this country is becoming full of selfish, uneducated morons who don't give a toss for anyone else but would be absolutely horrified if anyone did to one of theirs what they happily do to others.

But even I am disgusted if they really are doing their business on the beach and in people's gardens? Really? My cat manages to do his in his litter tray - mind you, he's probably more intelligent than half a dozen of these excuses for human beings put together.

What on earth is this country coming to? Even if the police did arrest them, they'd get off with a caution or a puny fine, so why should they bother? (and I don't care that I sound like Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells!!).

I have no empathy with these people - none at all.

[guest189040]

One of my friends has lost her confidence during this time and is quite depressed after living this recent reclusive life. She is too afraid to go out just for a walk down the street.
Somehow, there has to be a balance between the medical, physical and mental effects of this hibernation and individual risk assessment.
By asking people not to go out or meet up to protect one section of the community, you are putting another group at risk.

That is absolutely the key issue.

Personally I am quite comfortable being at home, I have no desire to go and sit on a hot beach and shopping is something I do for essentials only at any time.  (And it does perhaps help that my local library service is providing free Ancestry access at home  )

But I do follow several forums other than Rootschat and have observed (not surprisingly) that Rootschat is somewhat more conservative in the approach people think should be adopted, in comparison to some of the other forums.

I don't agree with a lot of what is said on those other forums (e.g. objections to wearing facemasks), but I do appreciate the wide variety of views.

Dismissing people as "idiots" and "stupid" just because they have a different perspective on the situation suggests there is a two-way lack of empathy and understanding.

I totally disagree with your last statement

These people have nothing between their ears so no point in saying about Empathy and Understanding their actions have demonstrated that they care only about themselves.

Raves, cramming outside Liverpool's football ground when asked by the Club not to, and just look at the Beaches where they crammed themselves in like sardines and what rubbish these Morons left behind 20 tonnes on Bornemouth Beach alone.

It also dismisses all the hard work that NHS and critical staff have been doing these past few months as practically worthless to them.

As has been shown this last couple of weeks there is a massive breakdown in Social Caring and adherence of criteria that has been put in place for the the purpose of limiting the cases of CV19

[sonofthom]

I would agree with most of what Nick said. The Government and some of the media have greatly exaggerated the severity and infectiousness of the current virus to the extent that some people have become absolutely and irrationally petrified believing that we are dealing with something akin to the Black Death. This is in itself scandalous as it is blighting the lives of many people. As more real data has emerged based on worldwide experience of this particular virus it is clear that it is not as serious a threat as at one time feared and indeed for much of the population the risk is very low. Despite this we still have unprecedented restrictions on our liberty rather than targetting protection and resources for those most at risk. After three months of relentless propaganda it is hardly surprising that very many people are rebelling.

As regards English beaches clearly those who behaved with little respect for the environment and the property of others deserve our condemnation but I would think that this is likely to be a very small minority. It is completely ridiculous and a gross misuse of language to suggest that all who go to beaches on a hot summer day are morons.

[Nick_Ips]

Having a different perspective is one thing, but breaking the law isn't a matter of personal choice.

Agreed. But going out, even travelling to a beach (in England), is not against the law.

If people want to go to the beach, then they should respect social distancing rules.

Agreed. But failing to comply with social distancing "rules" is not against the law.

They should use the public toilets (they were open in Bournemouth) not urinate and defecate on the beach and behind beach huts. But of course they have a different perspective on hygiene and decent behaviour and the rest of us should have empathy and understanding.  A record number of parking fines were handed out for people parking illegally, but of course we must understand people must park somewhere and when the official car parks are full,  they need to park across people's drives, restrict the highways, impede the emergency services, because that is their right and we must empathise with their difficulties.

Either you've misunderstood, or you are deliberately misconstruing my point. The activities you describe in this paragraph are illegal and/or unlawful and/or antisocial at any time, the pre-existence of Covid has no bearing on their acceptability or otherwise.

In case it was unclear, my reference to "the situation" was in response to heywood's point about "asking people not to go out or meet up".

Criticising people for leaving their rubbish all over the beach is perfectly fair.  Criticising people for sitting on the beach in a household group or 'bubble' and observing social distancing is unfair.

Some of the media coverage and comments about Bournemouth (for example) is tarring everyone with the same brush. Everyone on the beach is being treated as an "idiot" or "stupid", regardless of what they individually or as groups are doing. The coverage - as has happened many times in recent months - appears to be exaggerated or blown out of proportion, and is conflating many different issues.

Three people were stabbed yesterday and needed hospital treatment (all from London according to Dorset police).

What is the relevance of them coming from London?  Stabbing anyone, anytime, anywhere is illegal.  Travelling from London to Dorset doesn't make it any more (or less) illegal.

A few weeks ago at Durdle Door beach, there were four injuries, mostly due to "tombstoning", an incident that required Lulworth coastguard rescue team, Kimmeridge coastguard, Hill Head Coastguard RT (Gosport), one of the Weymouth lifeboats, Dorset and Somerset Air ambulance and two SAR coastguard helicopters, one from Lee-on Solent and the other from St Asath in Wales. This is in addition to the local police and land ambulance service. Two casualties had to be taken to the major trauma unit in Southampton (a different county) because there was none available in Dorset. All those resources for four people in the middle of a pandemic, whose injuries were entirely down to their own behaviour. But of course I must have empathy and understanding because they have a different perspective on what is reasonable behaviour. At least this week Durdle Door didn't have any incidents like that, it was just litter and excrement they left.

Jumping off a cliff into water of unknown depth is stupid and idiotic.

But the incident you describe happened nearly a month ago when the situation with coronavirus was very different.

And tombstoning at Durdle Door is not a new activity related to Covid:-
https://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/17752731.men-jumped-durdle-door-warned-tombstoning-danger/

[ThrelfallYorky]

After reading all this I'd really prefer to go back into hibernation ... or would it be aestivation? (Sorry, can't manage dipthongs) than have to deal with the real world of today!
TY