Great grandfather Alfred Jones - a bigamist.

[jonwarrn]

Following on from my last post, I'm mighty confused!

You're doing brilliantly well, can you fit an Ellen Jones in somewhere?

Couple of likely birth registrations of Turner children
Sep 1873 St George in the East, Rebecca Mary Turner, mother Titching
June 1881 St George in the East, Martha Ellen Turner, mother Tichten

So, if it helps at all re the Turners, I think the marriage of John and Rebecca is this one
20 Nov 1870, St Thomas Stepney
John Turner and Rebecca Tichte
Image here on FamilySearch and also on ancestry (where Rebecca is Tickle)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L96G-LY7X?i=96

FamilySearch transcript
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJ8Y-2DY

John's father is Francis Turner, Waterman
And a witness is Charlotte Turner

In 1861 at 9 Lower Well Alley, St George in the East - RG09/281/123/28
Martha Chapman 68 Head, Widow, Shirt (or Sheet) Maker b Woodbridge, Suffolk
Charlotte Turner 35 Daur b Stepney
Sarah Chapman 28 Daur Unmarried Ship(?) Trowser Maker b Stepney (Elizah on FindMyPast)
John Turner 14 Errand Boy b St George in the East

So it all seems to fit in with this.
Baptism of John Turner at St Peter London Docks, 22 Sep 1857 (private baptism)
born 5 June 1847
John
parents Francis + Charlotte Turner
abode Hampton Court
father Waterman (deceased)

Possible birth reg
TURNER, JOHN       
Mother's Maiden Surname: CHAPMAN 
GRO Reference: 1847  J Quarter in SAINT GEORGE (IN THE EAST)  Volume 02  Page 88

Francis Turner, a Waterman,  married Charlotte Chapman, 3 March 1847, St Dunstan Stepney
Fathers were James Turner, Barge Builder, and Robert Chapman, Carman
Image
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSFC-M6NP?i=202

Haven't found Charlotte before then.

[jonwarrn]

Looking at those two Alfred Jones marriages, I have to say I think that the signatures are very similar.
Don't forget, re 1911 census signature, that he probably wrote out the whole form himself, so you have a good sample of his handwriting.

Did he ever use the David name again?
There are baptisms of children of Alfred and Annie Jones at St Luke Victoria Docks from around 1896. He appears to be just Alfred on those. Unfortunately - with the libraries being closed  - I can't get hold of the more detailed transcriptions.

Does Linda have the Alfred who married Annie in the 1901 census? Presumably they are in West Ham. Because I can't see him! Daughter Rebecca was born 1899 (21 May according to ancestry)and she should be easy to spot.

Here they are in the 1911 free index
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWF3-WFM

Alfred's details are a pretty exact match for the earlier records. Wife Annie is born Camden Town, they have a 14 year old son James, then Rebecca, 11, Rose, age 9, and two younger children.

According to the ancestry transcript of the St Luke's baptism record, Rose was Rose Alice, and was born 28 Nov 1900. Baptized in October 1901.
But can that be right?
Birth reg in Dec 1901, fitting with age in 1911
JONES, ROSE  ALICE     
Mother's Maiden Surname: JONES 
GRO Reference: 1901  D Quarter in WEST HAM  Volume 04A  Page 161

Looking again in 1901 in West Ham, there is a family in the same street as Alfred and Annie were in 1911, and with some similarities, but plenty of differences!
piece 1580 folio 170 page 45
54 Devonshire Road
Just to confuse, first household is William Jones, 40, Dock Labourer, and wife Amy
Second household
Arthur Jones Head 32 Stevedore's Labourer, born London St Georges
Annie Jones Wife 32, London Camben Town (looks like)
John Jones Son 4 Essex West Ham
Rose Jones Daughter 1 Essex West Ham
Walter Preston Boarder 23
Trabscript here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9NC-GC2

So Mr Jones has a different first name. but the rest is the same.
Annie Jones pretty much matches the 1911 details.
Children's ages correct, names wrong, but Alfred and Annie were soon to have a daughter Rose!

Can this couple be eliminated?
Has anybody got more info from the baptisms at St Lukes?
John

[Oxtonite62]

I'm not sure if this is connected, but looking for births of Alfred Jones c1869 turns up this one:

JONES, ALFRED mmn CHAPMAN 
GRO Reference: 1868  D Quarter in SAINT GEORGE IN THE EAST  Volume 01C  Page 449

St George in the East Workhouse register of births:
7 Nov 1868 Alfred Jones, Mother: Sarah Jones. Legitimate

Sarah Jones b 1832 admitted to St George Workhouse 7 Nov 1868 in labour.  Discharged with Alfred 28 Nov 1868.

Other Jones children registered with the mmn Chapman in St George in the East include Francis Robert in 1862, and his baptism on 4 May 1862 at St Mary Stepney gives his parents as Henry & Sarah Jones, Labourer, of Lower Well Alley, St George

ADDED:
Possibly them in 1861 at 8 Duke Street, St George in the East
Henry Jones 31 Dock Labourer b St George, Middx
Sarah Jones 30 wife Tailoress b Wimbledon (?) Surrey

Thank you Jomot. This is very interesting and looks like a distinct possibility. On Alfred’s first marriage in 1889 he stated his father was Henry and his daughter (my grandmother) was named Sarah.

I did see the birth of an Alfred Jones mmn Chapman on the GRO website but discounted it as I wasn’t aware of the Chapman connection at that point.

This is all very exciting and gives me another option to investigate.

[Oxtonite62]

Following on from my last post, I'm mighty confused!

You're doing brilliantly well, can you fit an Ellen Jones in somewhere?

Couple of likely birth registrations of Turner children
Sep 1873 St George in the East, Rebecca Mary Turner, mother Titching
June 1881 St George in the East, Martha Ellen Turner, mother Tichten

So, if it helps at all re the Turners, I think the marriage of John and Rebecca is this one
20 Nov 1870, St Thomas Stepney
John Turner and Rebecca Tichte
Image here on FamilySearch and also on ancestry (where Rebecca is Tickle)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L96G-LY7X?i=96

FamilySearch transcript
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJ8Y-2DY

John's father is Francis Turner, Waterman
And a witness is Charlotte Turner

In 1861 at 9 Lower Well Alley, St George in the East - RG09/281/123/28
Martha Chapman 68 Head, Widow, Shirt (or Sheet) Maker b Woodbridge, Suffolk
Charlotte Turner 35 Daur b Stepney
Sarah Chapman 28 Daur Unmarried Ship(?) Trowser Maker b Stepney (Elizah on FindMyPast)
John Turner 14 Errand Boy b St George in the East

So it all seems to fit in with this.
Baptism of John Turner at St Peter London Docks, 22 Sep 1857 (private baptism)
born 5 June 1847
John
parents Francis + Charlotte Turner
abode Hampton Court
father Waterman (deceased)

Possible birth reg
TURNER, JOHN       
Mother's Maiden Surname: CHAPMAN 
GRO Reference: 1847  J Quarter in SAINT GEORGE (IN THE EAST)  Volume 02  Page 88

Francis Turner, a Waterman,  married Charlotte Chapman, 3 March 1847, St Dunstan Stepney
Fathers were James Turner, Barge Builder, and Robert Chapman, Carman
Image
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSFC-M6NP?i=202

Haven't found Charlotte before then.

Jonw65 & Jomot...you have both done brilliantly! I really appreciate the effort that has gone into this difficult search. This has been gnawing away at me 24/7 since my recent dna matches came to light.

The marriage I found at St James the Great, Bethnal Green in 1887 between Joseph Turner (Father John Turner) & Rebecca Jones (Widow) nee Webb is, I now believe, a red herring as since looking at the 1891 Census where Alfred was transcribed as Ines, the age for Rebecca doesn’t match....so can now discount that.

Jonw65, I agree I do think the signatures are alike but wanted the opinion of people more experienced than me. It can’t be possible that I’m descended from two Alfred Jones....surely no? The paper trail is now very convincing for the Alfred that married my great grandmother, Eliza Sullivan & the dna backs up the link to Alfred David Jones. I’ve not come across him using the middle name of David but then I didn’t have much to go on until now.

I don’t have Alfred with his new family for the 1901 Census..can we eliminate the Arthur Jones family or did he change his name again to hide his ‘crime’?  In 1901 my grandmother aged 10 was in the Salvation Army shelter in Whitechapel (and pretty much in and out of there on a regular basis) with her mother Eliza Jones and her half sibling Bridget Jones age 3 who was actually registered at birth as Bridget Barrett (Father William)....another mystery.  Maybe Alfred couldn’t risk using his real name in 1901 due to his first family living in dire poverty!

The basic information my dna match gave to me matches up with the family in West Ham in 1911. Alfred & Annie’s daughter Rebecca married his great grandfather.

My task for today is to get my head around all the information given to me. I’d like to look further into the Turners & Chapmans, the other Jones children - Francis Robert & the twins as this is all new to me. My grandmother Sarah Jones (later Cash) also gave birth to twins - twin girls, one only lived for a day and the other, my aunt is 88 years old! Unfortunately she doesn’t know much about the family as she was evacuated at a young age.

[jonwarrn]

Hi
Regarding eliminating Arthur and family, I haven't found them in 1911. But I do think it likely that all the Rose (and variants!) Jones born in the West Ham district who would have been about a year old in 1901 can be eliminated. In the sense that their parents were not Arthur and Annie!

So it is possible that it might be the Alfred we are interested in. If we can eventually get an address for Alfred circa 1901 from other records it may help. People could move about a bit though. Or did they stay in Devonshire Road for some years, albeit different numbers?
John

[Mabel Bagshawe]

In 1901 my grandmother aged 10 was in the Salvation Army shelter in Whitechapel (and pretty much in and out of there on a regular basis) with her mother Eliza Jones and her half sibling Bridget Jones age 3 who was actually registered at birth as Bridget Barrett (Father William)....another mystery.  Maybe Alfred couldn’t risk using his real name in 1901 due to his first family living in dire poverty!

That's useful. I'd come across a Sarah, daughter of ELiza, the right age and location in workhouse admissions, sometimes with sibling Bridget, but with father William. This now makes sense.

Eliza Jones said her husband was a soldier in South Africa in 1902. I presume she's referring to William Barrett's whereabouts?

[Jomot]

I don’t have Alfred with his new family for the 1901 Census..can we eliminate the Arthur Jones family or did he change his name again to hide his ‘crime’? 

I also don't think this family should be eliminated.  Its possible that the names may have been incorrectly supplied on purpose, but equally it could just be sloppy work by the enumerator when he transferred the information from the original household return.   

[Oxtonite62]

Hi
Regarding eliminating Arthur and family, I haven't found them in 1911. But I do think it likely that all the Rose (and variants!) Jones born in the West Ham district who would have been about a year old in 1901 can be eliminated. In the sense that their parents were not Arthur and Annie!

So it is possible that it might be the Alfred we are interested in. If we can eventually get an address for Alfred circa 1901 from other records it may help. People could move about a bit though. Or did they stay in Devonshire Road for some years, albeit different numbers?
John

Hi John

You are so very thorough in your ‘detective ‘ work...thank you! I think the evidence is looking very convincing that it could be our Alfred’s family in 1901. I wouldn’t have thought he would move about very much..may have been too ‘dangerous’. I often wonder whether his new family knew about his past life? Hoping we can find other evidence of his address in 1901.

Linda

[Oxtonite62]

I don’t have Alfred with his new family for the 1901 Census..can we eliminate the Arthur Jones family or did he change his name again to hide his ‘crime’? 

I also don't think this family should be eliminated.  Its possible that the names may have been incorrectly supplied on purpose, but equally it could just be sloppy work by the enumerator when he transferred the information from the original household return.

Hi Jomot

It looks very likely that it could be the same family. The evidence you & John have put together is very encouraging. I too thought that it could have been a mistake by the enumerator as Annie was the only name that hadn’t been changed...but knowing our Alfred...anything is possible.

Thanks

Linda