John Lloyd b1864 ?

[strelitzia]

I am having great difficulty in searching for my Great Grandfather's birth record. Please could someone else take a look, incase I am missing something?

The most recent available Census: John Lloyd, born 1864 Gillsfield Montgomeryshire. Living in Brampton Bryan, Radnorshire/ Herefordshire
1901 Census: John Lloyd, born 1864, NK, Shropshire
1891 Census: John Lloyd, born 1864, NK, Radnorshire

I have a copy of his marriage certificate from a relative who did work on the tree. He married Elizabeth Davies in Leintwardine, Herefordshire on 6th May, 1889. Both resident of Leintwardine. He was aged 25 and she 24. He lists his father as Thomas Lloyd, labourer. (Elizabeth's father was also a Thomas).

Can anyone take a look for him on the 1881 census? or even better find his parents?
The only John Lloyd born 1864 (+/-1) in Guilsfield , Montgomeryshire, has a father John.

There is a John Lloyd c1859 Leintwardine with father Thomas which a relative thinks might be him, but my father was certain that his grandfather was from Wales. Family lore is that they were gypsies (!)
But this does not match up to his claimed birth date of 1864 that is consistent. Nor would it match up for the census records changing from Shropshire unkown, to Radnorshire unkown, to suddenly specific Gillsfield Montgomeryshire?

John lloyd died in 1937 I think, as his wife, Elizabeth was a widow living with one of their sons by 1939.

[strelitzia]

Hello,

Trying to track down my great grandfather's birth. I went through all possible baptisms in Montgomeryshire, which is a possible county he was born in...

There is an an interesting contender.
John Thomas Lloyd, baptised 1865 in Llanwnog, mother, Elizabeth Lloyd. (No father listed-presumed illegit).
1871 census for Llanwnog,
Elizabeth Lloyd, unmarried, charwoman, b Newtown, head
John T Lloyd, 1865, b Llanwnog, son
Richard E Lloyd, 1870, b Llanwnog, son
Joseph R Lloyd, 1871, b Llanwnog, son
Elizabeth Bunford (Burford?), 1791, Carno Mother

This is interesting, as it would suggest that Elizabeth Lloyd took on the surname of the father or alleged father of her children without marrying. I can't seem to see a baptism in Llanwnog for Richard or Joseph, nor did a search bring up anything else about them. They disappear off the map.

Any ideas? Could Elizabeth have married? Surely she must have been ostracised for having three children illegitimately, presumably by the same father if they are all Lloyds?

This is just a rough sketch, and idea. My Grt Grandfather turns up to marry Leintwardine Herefordshire in 1889, claiming his father is Thomas Lloyd labourer. Is it possible that the family moved on, and is his middle name Thomas, an attempt of revealing that the father was Thomas Lloyd too?

Actually just had another think.
The mother's surname being different doesn't mean that Elizabeth Lloyd was using a surname that was not ' legally ' hers. Her mother may have more simply married again after Elizabeth Lloyd was born.
Also, the 'mother' is aged 80. Elizabeth Lloyd is 28. Her mum being 52 when she was born is rather pushing it..

[DCB]

I have found the following, some of which might be of help

LLOYD, RICHARD - no mother's birth name
GRO Reference: 1869  S Quarter in NEWTOWN  Volume 11B  Page 202

LLOYD, JOSEPH  ROBERT - no mother's birth name   - 
GRO Reference: 1870  D Quarter in NEWTOWN  Volume 11B  Page 202

1861 - Penrallt, Surnant, Newtown
Elizabeth  Bumford  Head  Widow 1791  Pauper  b Carno
Jane  Davies  Wife  Married 1834  Domestic Servant  b Carno
Thomas  Davies  Grandson 1856  -  b Carno
David  Davies  Grandson 1859  -  b Llanwnog

DAVIES, DAVID mother - BUMFORD 
GRO Reference: 1859  M Quarter in NEWTOWN  Volume 11B  Page 206

Jane Bumford
Baptism: 13 Oct 1833
Place: Llanidloes
Denomination: Wesleyan Methodist
Parents: Bowen and Elizabeth of Carno

Bowen Bumford, widowed, of Llanwnnog
Marriage: 3 Jun 1831 at Carno
Spouse: Elizabeth Roberts of Carno

1841 -
Bowen  Bumford 1786  b Montgomeryshire
Elizabeth  Bumford 1806  b Montgomeryshire
Jane  Bumford 1834  b Montgomeryshire
Edward  Bumford 1821  b Montgomeryshire
Elizabeth  Lowe 1839  b Montgomeryshire

Bowen Bumford of Carno, Buried on 31 May 1860 at Llanwnnog, age 77

David

[amondg]

Elizabeth Lowe from the 1841 census.
The birth was registered Newtown 1839 mothers maiden name Bumford
ADDED
possible parents
John Lowe married Mary Bumford 1838 registered Newtown listed on the same page.

[amondg]

Lloyd, John Thomas registered Newtown March quarter 1865 no mothers maiden name Vol 11B page 222

[amondg]

1851 census Llysyn
Bowen Mumford 63  ag lab pauper  written as Mumford s/b Bumford
Elizabeth Mumford 54 born Carno
Elizabeth Lloyd 9 grand daughter born Newtown

So in 1871 when she says Elizabeth Bumford is her mother she is actually her grandmother who raised her.

[DCB]

A good find in 1851, which I missed. Some additional information:-

John Lowe, a weaver, married Mary Bumford, also a weaver, on 16th December 1838 in Newtown.
Both fo Brickfield, Newtown. Parents: Richard Lowe, a weaver, and Bowen Bumford, a labourer.
Witnesses -Thomas Lowe and Sam Horton.

Mary Bumfford, daughter of Bowen and Elizabeth, baptised on 31 July 1814 in Llanwnnog. Abode Tan'r allt.

Bowen Bumford married Elizabeth Powel in Llanwnnog on 31st August 1811.

Elizabeth Bumford of Newtown was buried in Llanwnnog on 3rd March 1832. Age 67 seems a bit high.

There are several trees on Ancestry which have the birth of Bowen Bumford in 1790, son of Richard Bumford and Mary Low. Some trace the family back to Edward Bumford 1580-1635 and Margaret Rees Powel 1580-1634.

If the right person:-
Bowen Bomford
Baptism: 9 Apr 1789 in Trefeglwys, Montgomeryshire, son of Richard and Mary

Elizabeth might be:-
LLOYD, ELIZABETH mmn LLOYD 
GRO Reference: 1842  M Quarter in NEWTOWN AND LLANIDLOES  Volume 27  Page 137

David

[amondg]

The Elizabeth Bumford buried 1832 age 67 cannot be the wife of Bowen as he married Elizabeth Roberts as a widower in 1831 per your notes.

Was Elizabeth Roberts a spinster when she married Bowen?

The 1851 census says that Elizabeth Lloyd is a granddaughter, so a Bumford girl must have married a Lloyd in order for her last name to be Lloyd it does not mean Elizabeth is illegitimate.
If Elizabeth Roberts was also a widow when she married then a Roberts girl marrying a Lloyd would also make Elizabeth 1842 a grand daughter.

On Freebmd there is an Elizabeth Bumford and a David Lloyd listed on the same page in 1841 there are several other names so I don't know if they married each other.   

[amondg]

We are straying from the point, on all census John Lloyd states that is his name, he never says it is John Thomas Lloyd.So I think we are on a wild goose chase.

Look at the names of the children 1911 the first boy is Thomas named for either father.

CORRECTED
first girl is Margaret Elizabeth 1889, second girl is Mary Edith 1891, then Alice Gertrude 1893 and Florence May 1896

so is Margaret her mothers name and Mary his mothers name?