Author Topic: Opinion on Border Reivers as clans etc  (Read 6901 times)

Offline Skoosh

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Re: Opinion on Border Reivers as clans etc
« Reply #27 on: Sunday 26 April 20 09:25 BST (UK) »
Mojo, you have to take things in the context of an expansionist England which was killing people wholesale in Ireland, Wales & Scotland then tried their hand in the Hundred Years War in France, where of course they got gubbed.
 Not content with the foreign adventures they made a fair stab at annihilating one another in their so-called Wars of the Roses, burning one another alive in their so-called Reformation then embarking on a Civil War which saw carnage of the peeps in these islands not matched again until the Great War! 
 The Scottish Borders by comparison sounds a haven of peace & tranquillity!   ;D


Bests,
Skoosh.

Offline imchad

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Re: Opinion on Border Reivers as clans etc
« Reply #28 on: Sunday 26 April 20 09:54 BST (UK) »
I was at a meeting with an official of the Lyon office. One exchange went like this. In USA, if (for example) the Clan Armstong did not attend a Highland Games, the question might be asked "where are Clan Armstrong?". In Scotland, if Clan Armstrong were to attend games at Inverness, the question would be "Why are Clan Armstong here?"  As I said earlier, bagpipes, kilts and clans were outlawed in 1746, only to be re-invented by their ancestors in USA.

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Opinion on Border Reivers as clans etc
« Reply #29 on: Sunday 26 April 20 10:08 BST (UK) »
I was at a meeting with an official of the Lyon office. One exchange went like this. In USA, if (for example) the Clan Armstong did not attend a Highland Games, the question might be asked "where are Clan Armstrong?". In Scotland, if Clan Armstrong were to attend games at Inverness, the question would be "Why are Clan Armstong here?"
It might even be, "What are the Armstrongs doing here?" - avoiding the word 'clan' altogether.

Quote
As I said earlier, bagpipes, kilts and clans were outlawed in 1746, only to be re-invented by their ancestors in USA.
The ban on kilts, tartan, bagpipes and so on was repealed in Scotland in about 1792, and tartanalia was reinvented in Scotland in the 1820s, partly after the visit of King George IV in 1822, when Sir Walter Scott had a hand in popularising the idea of the Highlands as romantic. He even persuaded the king to wear a kilt, though the king wore flesh-coloured tights with it to preserve his modesty. 
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline imchad

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Re: Opinion on Border Reivers as clans etc
« Reply #30 on: Sunday 26 April 20 10:35 BST (UK) »
Hi Forfarian, OK, I agree with your post. Maybe I was a bit hard on our American cousins.


Offline Elwyn Soutter

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Re: Opinion on Border Reivers as clans etc
« Reply #31 on: Sunday 26 April 20 10:36 BST (UK) »
Quote:

The ban on kilts, tartan, bagpipes and so on was repealed in Scotland in about 1792, and tartanalia was reinvented in Scotland in the 1820s, partly after the visit of King George IV in 1822, when Sir Walter Scott had a hand in popularising the idea of the Highlands as romantic. He even persuaded the king to wear a kilt, though the king wore flesh-coloured tights with it to preserve his modesty.
[/quote]

What Forfarian has said is covered in some detail in the “Sartorial Myth” chapter of Trevor-Ropers’ book I mentioned previously. 

The modern kilt was invented in 1727 by an Englishman, Thomas Rawlinson, a Quaker from Lancashire. He had hired a load of Highlanders to chop down trees. They were dressed in a full plaid.

“During his stay at Glengarry, Rawlinson became interested in the Highland costume; but he also became aware of its inconvenience. The belted plaid might be appropriate to the idle life of the Highlanders – for sleeping in the hills or lying hidden in the heather. It was also conveniently cheap, since, as all agreed, “the lower classes could not afford the expense of trousers or breeches.” But for men who had to fell trees or tend furnaces, it was a cumbrous, unwieldy habit. Therefore, being a man of genius and quick parts, Rawlinson sent for the tailor of the regiment stationed at Inverness and, with him, set out to abridge the dress and make it handy and convenient for his workmen. The result was the “felie beg”, philibeg or small kilt, which was achieved by separating the skirt from the plaid and converting it into a distinct garment, with pleats already sown.” Rawlinson wore it, as did Ian MacDonell of Glengarry, after which the clansmen obediently followed their chief. It was “found so handy and convenient that in the shortest space the use of it became frequent in all the Highland countries and in many of the Northern Lowland countries also.”

All this is really just to highlight that in the late 1500s/early 1600s, Border Reivers were not wearing kilts as we know them today. And there were no tartans. According to Trevor-Roper, sixteenth century writers who noted Highland dress describe chiefs as wearing coloured cloth, and their followers brown. Any differentiation in colour indicated your status not your clan. Martin Martin (1716) noted some stripes and colours. He assigned these differences to localities eg a whole island, and not as something that differentiated clans.

My understanding is that the average weaver in the 1500s and 1600s didn’t have the skills, time or technology to create subtle patterns either.
Elwyn

Offline Skoosh

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Re: Opinion on Border Reivers as clans etc
« Reply #32 on: Sunday 26 April 20 12:36 BST (UK) »
Trevor-Roper & his fanciful notions is set to be de-bunked in an article in next weeks National. Cannae wait!  ;D

Skoosh.

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Opinion on Border Reivers as clans etc
« Reply #33 on: Sunday 26 April 20 13:16 BST (UK) »
The modern kilt was invented in 1727 by an Englishman, Thomas Rawlinson, a Quaker from Lancashire. He had hired a load of Highlanders to chop down trees. They were dressed in a full plaid.
Indeed, but I was under the impression that it was about 1772 (after the '45) rather than 1727 (before the '45).
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline Elwyn Soutter

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Re: Opinion on Border Reivers as clans etc
« Reply #34 on: Sunday 26 April 20 13:34 BST (UK) »
The modern kilt was invented in 1727 by an Englishman, Thomas Rawlinson, a Quaker from Lancashire. He had hired a load of Highlanders to chop down trees. They were dressed in a full plaid.
Indeed, but I was under the impression that it was about 1772 (after the '45) rather than 1727 (before the '45).

Trevor-Roper dates it to 1727 (pp 198/9 of his book).  According to Wikipedia (yes I know!), it seems to have been discussed in the Edinburgh Magazine for March 1785. In a letter reportedly written some years earlier, in 1768, Ivan Baillie of Aberiachan, Esq. asserted that the new form of the kilt was the creation of Thomas Rawlinson, an entrepreneur who had established an iron works in the Highlands (specifically, in woodland at Invergarry).  According to Baillie, Rawlinson, observing how the great kilt was "a cumbersome unwieldy habit to men at work. . ." decided to "abridge the dress, and make it handy and convenient for his workmen". This he did by directing the usage of the lower, pleated portion only, the upper portion being detached and set aside. The full text of the letter of Ivan Baillie is reproduced in John Telfer Dunbar's History of Highland Dress. Dunbar quotes the letter approvingly, at the same time citing McClintock's Old Irish and Highland Dress in support of the story, stating that "many attempts have been made to produce proof of the little kilt (Gaelic feilidh beag) before that date (i.e., before about 1725 – ed.) but nothing so far published can substantiate such claims." He goes on to say that "some of the most popular 'evidence' has been examined and refuted in McClintock . .".

However, since the publication of Dunbar's book, the Baillie version of events has been disputed. Matthew Newsome, director emeritus of the Scottish Tartans Museum in North Carolina, for instance, has stated that ". . . we have numerous illustrations of Highlanders wearing only the bottom part of the belted plaid that date long before Rawlinson ever set foot in Scotland", going on to assert that "there is some suggestion of its use in the late seventeenth century, and it was definitely being worn in the early eighteenth century".

Notwithstanding: when Baillie's account was published in the Edinburgh Magazine in March 1785, it was not contradicted, and was on the contrary confirmed by the two greatest authorities on Scottish custom of the time, Sir John Sinclair and John Pinkerton and by the independent testimony of the Glengarry family, whose chief, Ian MacDonnell was Rawlinson's business partner.

I am well aware that Trevor-Roper came unstuck having incorrectly authenticated Hitler’s diaries but my understanding is that he was generally a pretty respected academic.  Worth taking account of what he says, anyway.  The tone of his book is not particularly negative but he does comment on a tendency for some to re-write Scottish history from time to time. Brig O’Doon versions of Scotland, as others have commented before.
Elwyn

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Opinion on Border Reivers as clans etc
« Reply #35 on: Sunday 26 April 20 13:54 BST (UK) »
Thanks, Elwyn. I stand corrected.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.